Hi all! I'm new here and would love to join in the discussions. You all seem so knowledgable and supportive.
I'll try my best to be brief, but it will be hard to not ramble

My DS6 is in K in a large public school system and is identified gifted. I feel overpowered by the district, despite knowledge of educational laws in my state (PA). Nothing from my son's very vague GIEP was followed through this year. He is capable of learning several grade levels above the curriculum. During his last GIEP the gifted coordinator suggested that the district would not accelerate in the classroom in 1st grade. More specifically, she said some vague thing about how they could "enrich" in the classroom BUT (exact words): "Can we give him material from the second grade math curriculum? No" This is a kid who learned in under an hour the concept of binary numbers and how to add them and convert to base 10. SO, I'm trying to get him accelerated to 2nd but hear all the usual about social/emotional issues, what happens when friends get driver's license, his writing is "only" strong when comparing him to other Kindergarteners, blah blah blah... I sent a letter to the principal requesting acceleration last week but have not heard back from her. His next GIEP is June 6, but that doesn't leave enough time to prepare him for next year, etc..

FWIW, I applied to Davidson YS for my DS6, was asked for "more information" which I submitted, and am now waiting to see if he is accepted.
Sorry for the ramble! I could really use the support from folks like yourself who have way more experience advocating for your children.

Thanks for any help you can give,
Jool

WElcome Jool!

I was told the same thing by the Gifted coordinator when my son was pulled out for math with her. He's in 2nd grade. She said the first thing I tell them is that I can't give them 3rd or even 4th grade work. Instead the spent the 1hr/week for 6weeks playing chess, Blokus, some other games. Now DS had a great time and I was so happy he had this bright spot in his week. But NOTHING changed in the classroom.

We have no such animal as a GIEP. But it's only worth the paper it's written on if the school doesn't follow it. I wish you luck in your advocacy. I don't have any advice, others here are more experienced than I.

I haven't applied to DYS for my DS7 but we're still welcome here anyhow.

Dazey

Hi Jool! I'm in PA myself, and your district might be one of those that has no intentions of complying. However, they might be convinced with a due process or mediation. Have you considered going that route? PM me if you want to talk PA specifics. Our school is "small", so I doubt we're neighbors, but I have a lot of PA contacts. Congratulations on getting the ID in K, that in itself is a huge milestone in many districts. Good luck with the DYS application.

Hi Jool! I'm sorry to hear about your battle.

Dottie's idea of going through due process seems like a good place to start. And if you are looking for your own information you could get a copy of the Iowa Acceleration Scale. I bought one recently from B&N.com, and I know Amazon sells them too. I wanted one just to see where my daughter falls on the scales, and if we wanted to start the acceleration process I wouldn't be in the dark about it. It requires test scores, but I assume you have them for your application to DYS.

I don't understand why teachers and schools are so hesitant to offer accelerated math. Isn't that exactly what they do in reading groups? I mean, my DD6 is in K but her little reading group of 3 is reading books at the 3rd grade level in their reading sessions. This seems perfectly normal for the subject of reading; I don't see why it can't be the same for math. At our school I do think that they try to somewhat individualize by teaching math in small groups within the classroom, but I don't think they do it as well as they do with reading. I can imagine your frustration.

I'm still new at this myself but have felt very welcome here. I think you will too. I wish you the best!

Amy

Most schools I've heard of don't group for reading anymore either. I know ours doesn't.

As I understand it, grouping (teaching kids in groups of similar ability and/or achievement) got unfairly associated with tracking (once you're on this track you can't get off it) in the minds of many people, and it has lately been considered an elitist teaching strategy. As that's frowned upon, there's a lot less grouping than there used to be. It's a shame because it's one proven teaching strategy that allows kids of all ability levels to advance.

Count your lucky stars that you have grouping in reading! Maybe you can get them to apply that idea to math, too. More power to you!

(While you're at it, can you get reading groups back in my local school, please?)

Hi Jool,

Good luck with DYS app. My DD8 was just shy of achievement testing scores, however, I am welcome here as well.
In fact any parent of GT kids that feels the need for discussion and support is welcome here, IMHO.
You're lucky you hooked up with Dottie, she knows ALOT! Especially about the PA system.

Good luck
Neato

If they haven't been following his GIEP, I would think you need to file a complaint rather than go to due process. Isn't due process for disagreements about the content of the GIEP? Come to think of it, maybe you need to do both...

Due process and/or mediation would cover non-compliance as well. It's an interesting process to say the least, but my own district has been much more willing to work with me after we were forced into that route. We got lucky and never had to go through with the due process, but we did use the mediation. Before that, I don't think my school realized I was serious about this. Keep in mind that the original GIEP is "vague"...she needs some muscle!

Some districts have the idea that they can push parents off for the full 13 years, and sadly many get away with just that. K is an excellent time to realign their approach.

Given that your GIEP is scheduled for June 6th, I would either request they move that up, or stick to that date but "insist" on better paperwork at that meeting. If that fails....that's when I'd file. I'm pretty sure the filing process goes through the summer, so you'd have something come to a head before 2008/2009.

It helps to have a good idea of what YOU want (ie one full skip with further "best subject" acceleration, etc). Sadly they probably won't take the lead. Go into the meeting with your own suggestions and ideas, and stand firm.

I agree that in such situations you do need to make the school understand that you are persistent, well-informed and that you are going to hold them to the letter of the law. At least, that worked for us when we were advocating for DD's 504. They actually assumed I had a lawyer because of all the legal information I had amassed

Just last night I was reading something which may be helpful to you: http://print.ditd.org/Guidebook1.pdf

It's important to keep a professional demeanor and to document everything. Verbal exchanges can be documented using "letters of understanding" but all official requests you make should be dated and in writing.

(PA specific post)

Oh, another thought....I fought the due process idea for years because it seems so overwhelming! And the thought of hiring a lawyer was not really a financial option. However...you can file "pro se" (which means I'm stupid enough to try this myself, but I am serious!) I honestly felt like I was playing chicken, driving straight for the cliff as I crammed legal issues into my brain at warp speed. Again, things worked out for us and we never had the actual due process hearing, but filing really did help. And no matter who you might hire, no one knows your situation and child's needs better than you.

If you plan to continue with public education, I suggest you read up on that process even if you don't file this year. Eventually your hand may be forced, and it's good to know what all it entails. I was initially told due process didn't apply for GT, and I definitely had the element of "surprise" when we actually did go that route.

One problem is that in larger districts, others have likely gone this route before and they'll often have a slick greasy lawyer all ready for the fight. We were lucky to go first. Are there any more experienced parents that you can contact locally for advice?

Yeah...what Cathy said! She snuck in before me.

<eyeroll> And don't believe a thing those guys say. They will say things that are patently false if they think it will help their case. If they quote some policy, code, regulation, whatever, your standard reply should be that you need a legal citation and copy of said policy, code, etc.

The cool thing is that if you document all the cr@p they spew out of their mouths it can really help you during due process! I have numerous quotes from administrators proving that our district has repeatedly violated the law .

Jool,
Good luck with the davidson application, but be assured that you are welcome here no matter what the outcome. Also be assured that kids who are 'near YSP' levels really do need more than the 'standard GIEP' stuff. Is the problem mostly in Math, or is that just the most easily illustrated problem?

Is he happy socially with his agemates?

Do you have other options, such as part time school, private school, online classes?

Part of advocacy is recognising that no matter what you do, or how you do it, there are times when one just can't get what they want from a particular school situation. So yes, do the procedures and go to due process, but my advice is that if you have reasonable alternatives, don't let your son's days and weeks and months get eaten up by the process. Many of us parents are quite successful in other areas of our lives, and have the unconsious idea that if we just 'do it right' then surely the schools will do what's right for our child. So do push a bit, but also sit down and write out what your goals, resources and alternatives are, and where your boundaries are. Don't worry about rambling here - we have large chunks of our lives as parents what have never has a chance to be said aloud before. Have a seat, here's some ((insert beverage and food of choice.)) You are amoung friends.

Best Wishes,
Grinity

Yes, certainly not everyone here has a Young Scholar, and we don't check IQ scores at the door. If you find what you need here, then you belong here. Period.



It's a very welcoming place. Home!

P.S. Really great advice about the alternatives and resources and not spinning your wheels with advocacy, Grinity. Kudos there!

What do you mean, "of course"?

I had this mental image of my two kids at the table, arms and legs waving helplessly...

It's close, but not quite true. They're mostly just trying to ruin my good kitchen table!

Anyway, carry on.

Boundaries are very important. It's good to have them already decided so that in the heat of the moment you don't make threats that you don't want to carry out. Think about your must-haves and also time limits. Advocacy takes time and the schools use that to their advantage

OT, but my kids have been known to spread white glue on their hands (and the table in the process) because it's so cool to peel it off when it dries

I was just talking to a 4th grade teacher about this the other day. Apparently we don't do tracking or ability grouping by classes (which is what we had when I was in school), but we do WITHIN the classes. This 4th grade teacher is at our school and teaches math and science. She explained that she teaches math to small groups of students. The small group method is required by the principal. She loves it because it makes her job easier when she has such varied levels within the same class.

I didn't realize others don't have reading groups anymore. I guess things are behind the times here in TX. In this case, I guess I'm glad.

Hi Jool and welcome!

I'm in PA too (big suburb district) and found that things went a lot better when I learned the law and could quote it at the relevant district folks. We never filed due process, but we wrote letters indicating that we expected them to meet their legal obligations and we specified what those were. Since we make it clear that we wouldn't accept their "standard" program (two hours a week pullout) because it wouldn't begin to meet our kids' needs, they've actually done a great job finding solutions for us. It did require us to get quite comfortable with the law and to stop assuming they were going to comply. They require signatures from you that shows you think they're doing what they are supposed to do -- and if you don't sign, that can create problems for them. I'd be happy to discuss details by PM if you are interested. There are lots of good resources available online to help you figure out what the law mandates -- starting with Todd McIntyre's stuff. Members of the PAGE group will share sample GIEP's with you which I found quite helpful. I think you also need to know how your district plans to fight or undermine you. We believed ours came from a place of good faith and so we didn't need a very detailed GIEP because once they'd agreed to do some unique things, we thought they would follow through. They did. For other districts, you might need much detail and ways to monitor compliance in the GIEP itself.

Regarding reading groups, our school has them and it works great because they cooperate over different classes. So out of five classes, there were three in a group last year combined that read stuff 2-3 years above grade level. This year, because the higher groups are at least 2 years above grade level and we have subject acceleration, one kid is getting taught at an almost appropriate level -- certainly one that's "good enough" for us, especially since they push the kids into other areas of
reading that mine don't initiate by themselves like fiction and poetry.

Good luck with the DYS application

Wow - thanks for such a warm welcome and excellent advice. I'm so glad I found this board...

I think I'm just starting to realize that the 'get more flies with honey...' saying doesn't apply to GT advocacy and I need to be more demanding. Sometimes I feel I have to play nicey-nice with the principal so we can get a grade skip, and that if I ask for too much by demanding a detailed GIEP with further subject acceleration etc., she'll say forget it to the skip.

Unfortunately, we don't have other educational options outside of public school. Homeschooling won't work for our family and $$ is too tight for private school. I do have a copy of the Iowa Acceleration Scale and DS6 would probably score high (some of the required scores are missing). I actually was going to put a copy of the IAS with my note to the principal along with "A Nation Deceived". My DS however,was convinced that the principal would be so offended by the suggestion that she needs to be educated that she would shut down and stand firm with not accelerating. Maybe I'll call the principal this week and if she says nay to 2nd grade then I'll start alluding to the law, due process (etc.)

Dottie and Gratified3, I'd like to contact you about experience with PA system as soon as I figure out how to PM!

I'll keep folks updated about DYS - I guess I should be hearing soon since we applied for the April 15 deadline.

Thanks again for the support,
Jool

I think trying to figure out how to thread that very challenging needle of too pushy vs. not pushy enough is just crazy-making. I hope you're oh-so-much better at it than I am. It sounds like you must be!

It is a fine line to walk! My strategy was to lead them to the conclusion that whole grade acceleration would be the least trouble for them--and truly it is. There was no way that my son's K teacher would have had the time or resources to give him appropriate work. Also, I feel that socially he is better off in a class where he is doing the same thing as everyone else instead of being pulled out or set to work by himself on a separate project.

It is so hard to negotiate with people who could make life very unpleasant for your child. If you have no other options then they have more power over you that way.

Okay Jool....your "My stuff" link above should have a little blinking red envelope by it, sort of "Harry Potter" style without the accompanying screeches. Click on that, and it should give you a menu of your "private messages", which will at a minimum include the one I just sent.

When things were at their worst for us, I dared not share details on a public message board! The PM is nice and private though, and you can call them any names you want, .

I just wanted to say hi and welcome. DS5 is in K and he loves binary numbers too. He picked learned it in a museum last year.

Good luck with the DYS application and the school. I hope you won't have to go through the whole due process, but at least you have the option to do so if needed.