I belong to a 'grandparents raising grandchildren' forum. I commented in that forum about the success GS8 is having in school. Here is part of a reply from another poster:


Has anyone seen any statistics of depression broken down by mental ability?

I don't have any statistics, but you can try googling existential depression. I know that's common.
What the person fails to suggest is that exceptionally bright people often have exceptional coping and compensating skills.
While any form of depression of emotional turmoil should not be ignored or taken lightly, I wouldn't become overly worried about this unless you see it happening.

No, I'm not worried. I'm mildly annoyed at negative conceptions people have about GT kids. I'd like to find some good data that supports or negates the statement the other poster made, just for my own knowlege.

I'm more worried about bipolar depression since there is a genetic link for that, and there are relatives on both sides with that; but that's another thread!

I'd suggest searching in the articles on GT-Cybersource. I believe I have seen an article or two supporting that statement. Maybe not a statistical statement, but a statement saying there is a risk.

My biggest problem is with the phrase "unmanageable social pressure." Huh?

I think being underchallenged can lead kids to feel out of place, even stupid and worthless because they are clearly missing something if the teacher, whom they respect, doesn't see the problem and parents don't help. I think perfectionism can lead to depression when a kid finally hits something that is actually hard.

But social pressure? I don't really buy it that social pressure is worse for GT kids than it is for any other kids. I think a lot of GT kids have a pretty healthy sense of self. They may not like the way they get treated by agemates, but I haven't heard much about GT kids suffering this sort of depression from it. Some, I'm sure, but no more than any other kid.

Hmmm...

No, you're right. I ignored the cause - just focused on the risk part of the statement. I haven't seen anything about social pressure.

Yeah...I don't know about the statistics but I have a problem with the assigned cause. I don't think there is adequate knowledge at this time to make such a definitive statement.

It seems to play into the crummy old myth that GT kids are anti-social and unpopular. Frankly, of the very few GT people I know who seem anti-social and/or unpopular, they're usually just introverts who have chosen to limit their social contacts, and they're pretty happy that way. No depression over it.

Being with agemates instead of true peers can be pretty hard on a kid, I suppose, but nothing that can't be remedied with the right sorts of contact with true peers. It certainly not the main cause of depression among GT kids, I wouldn't think.

Of course, this is all out of my own addled brain. I may have no idea what I'm talking about...

Of course, I don't know what I'm talking about so I did a quick article search on this site, and found this one among others: http://www.gt-cybersource.org/Record.aspx?NavID=2_0&rid=13872

I have found the article library on this site to be a wonderful resource.

That is an interesting and powerful article. These quotes caught my attention.

"Clinical records, among the data serving as the foundation for this paper, confirmed that some highly gifted children--especially those in undifferentiated school programs with no access to like-minded peers and appropriate learning experiences--may exhibit signs of depressive disorder as early as age 7."

"Children often... do not wear it [depression] on their sleeves as adults do. Children tend to be depressed in an extremely quiet way. They often creep into their rooms or other secluded places and cry while appearing cheerful in public settings. Usually they don't look as sad, tearful, or as slowed down as depressed adults. By the time a child exhibits signs of depression for all to see, he or she is usually severely depressed."

I found the masking to be quite a disturbing trait as well.

I know I did it in high school. I suffered some perfectionist-related depression when I hit my first-ever hard class, but no one had any idea about how I was feeling.

I came out okay, but I know many kids don't.

And 7yo is so early to suffer depression! Yet another answer to offer when asked, "Why can't they just wait until 3rd grade when the one-hour-a-week pullout for GT kids begins?"

I have a history of depression. I don't know if it's connected with giftedness but both run in my family.

I had trouble as a teen, after we moved and I had to leave my beloved GT school and spend two years in a public high school. I was lonely, bullied and depressed. Eventually, I suffered some kind of mental breakdown which included phobias, panic, insomnia and hallucinations. I kept it to myself as much as I could. I never had treatment for it. I tried going to counseling in college but I was never able to build any rapport with the counselor. During college it faded to a tolerable level. I currently feel saner than I ever did when I was younger Having a supportive, understanding DH helps in a big way!

Interesting article Texas Summer. I feel this definitely would describe my own elementary school experience and behavior.

My first thoughts on reading this were Columbine, Univ of Texas, Virginia Tech, Unabomber, and there was another high school whose name I can't remember.

These were all highly intelligent kids who felt left out socially and suffered from depression. Admittedly, you only here about the extreme cases, but how many other kids feel that way and don't act out?

I went through extreme, deep, clinical depression as an adult. Ended up checking myself into a psychiatric hospital at age 27. Most of my depression stemmed from masking my feelings as a kid. Most of that was probably family, but I do know that, being smart (we didn't have the term gifted then), I caught a lot of ridicule and shaming even from adults. And, I was always a social outcast at school, neither living up to my older sister's reputation nor being a "problem - drugs, sex, alchohol" like my other older sister.

My point is that I wouldn't reject the statement out of hand. I think it has more bearing than we are inclined to give it. After all, our kids are gifted and that could never happen to them, right? I don't think it is anything to panic over, just something to keep in mind when making decisions. And, I remember from my best therapist "Depression is anger turned inward". So, I see my son angry and think hard about it.

Disclaimer: I have not yet read the article posted by Texas Summer.

Were they all highly intelligent? I know the Unabomber was, but I don't know about the others.

I know the guy from the VA Tech shootings had been diagnosed with a mental illness well before the shootings, and at least one of his teachers had feared that he would self-destruct because of the way he behaved in class. She did not say anything about being impressed with his ability or intelligence. She just got him removed from her class for being inappropriate with the other students. I read nothing about his being GT.

I don't know enough about the kids in the other two cases you mentioned to even comment. Were they GT?

I don't mean to nitpick. I just want to be sure we're not perpetuating the stereotype of the "crazy genius" if these cases don't stand up to that.

So...isn't one of the mechanisms behind the anti-depressant effect of SSRIs that they promote an increase in neural connections? I remember reading that recently. And then - two other things which I remember as promoting an increase in neural connections are a stimulating environment and exercise. I don't think the reverse is proven (that boredom results in loss of neural connections), but... it seems at least possible that boredom really could be killing one's brain (that's the feeling I have sometimes, anyway) and that is depressing.

Sorry - lots of guesses, leaps of faith, and I can't seem to locate the article I recall. Here at least is something related: Science News (the mag I love) blurb on Prozac and neural maturation

For myself - I began to become depressed in third grade when I moved to a school without GT services or differentiation. (Plus, there was the bullying.) I hid it, it didn't even *occur* to me to tell my parents. Things improved in 7th following another move and the beginning of tracking.

Taking those drugs sure didn't make me feel like my neural connections were increasing...I just felt kind of...flat.

I also suffered from PPD after DD was born. I don't know about you, but depressive episodes are so frightening that I worry I'll have another. Once it has happened to you, you realize how narrow the path of sanity is...

Well, just as their are psychologists who specialize in helping gifted children, there are also those that work with gifted adults.
I'm sorry this sounds so vulgar, but I can't see how a non-gifted therapist is going to help a gifted/very gifted adult.

I'm probably going to get smacked for saying that, but, oh well.

Neato

I won't be the one smacking you...

And I might smack you, but not for that.

You are right, this site has a wonderful article library. I hadn't seen the article you linked, but I think that's just what I was looking for. Thanks! Thanks to all the others with info, too.

No...neither did I. Maybe because I'm not a mouse. Apparently an increase in the serotonin levels results in more new neurons (at least in mice). The theory is that the multi-week lag before antidepressants take effect might be due to the time it takes for new neurons to grow and begin to form connections. That is - the serotonin levels respond rapidly to the drugs but neural growth takes time. Anyway, this is an area of research ...

I'm not going to smack you, but with that reasoning then a male therapist probably can't help a female, and vice versa. And maybe a therapist should have suffered from depression before being able to help someone suffering from depression?

I think the therapist needs to be very well educated for a target clientele to be effective, as well as having other qualities. JMO, and I'm not bound to staying with it.

Thanks for not smacking me!

I see your logic but I think we're comparing apples and oranges. I think if a female patient feels they will be better helped with a female dr. and vice versa, then they will.
In therapuedic realtionship the main ingredient for success is trust, IMHO.
Also, the therapist has to guide the patient to growth without being obvious. Hard to do if the patient is out-thinking the therapist.

I think the therapist would have to be very knowledgable and skilled at working with GT kids at least.

I'd certainly think GTness would be helpful in this area, but I guess I wouldn't be checking IQ scores at the door. A person who simply doesn't understand GTness, hasn't done the reading, doesn't get that GT kids are different, etc., isn't going to be able to be an effective therapist for a GT kid. It would be like trying to work with the blind without understanding that they can't see. You just can't do the job. But how they get the understanding...well, there's probably more than one way to skin that particular cat.

Well, I know my comment is somewhat predjudicial and exhibits inflexible thinking. I'm usually more open-minded. That said, I still think it takes one to know one.
I do realize this can be somewhat offensive and I apologize for that, but stand by my thought on the issue.
But like OHG, I reserve the right to change my stance based on further info.

Well I'm probably going to get smacked again, too but (oops terminal grammatical flaw!) but this IS the kind ofthing that I was referring to in my other thread (bubble bursting) when it devolved to personal history.

I hope you didn't feel too smacked back there!

I got what you were trying to say and it's very valid. If there are a million ways a kid can get into trouble, then watching my DD's thought process in action, there outta be about 10 million ways she could get into trouble.

Well as parents, we do what we can do and hope for the best!

No smacking from here, but when you are in a deep enough depression the only thing you want to know about the therapist is "how can you help me?". Or, in some cases, you don't want to know anything at all about the therapist/doctor because you are not exactly there willingly.

I think if you are going to a therapist for emotional problems it doesn't really matter at the beginning. After you've worked through some of those problems, it might start to matter. The most important thing would be that the therapist didn't shame your giftedness (which does happen, sadly). It also depends on the severity and nature of the problem. When I was in the deepest part of my depression, I didn't care at all. You don't really go "shopping" for one, you just take whatever lifeline is thrown at you. And, I certainly wasn't thinking in terms of giftedness.

If, however, you are talking about a therapist to help a gifted child adjust to a particular situation or to advise on educational options, it makes a world of difference.

And, the drugs made me, too, feel flat, which was actually better than where I had been before. Sometimes flat ain't so bad, when you consider the alternative.

Interesting thread. I can't remember how it got started but interesting thoughts.

I know. All I could think about was throwing myself in front of traffic on the freeway I could see out my window. Eating was a chore because food tasted like sand. Feeling flat was an improvement.

I wasn't really in any kind of coherent state where I could have discussed giftedness. I do think therapy can be helpful even when one is not in a crisis, though. In that case, you really need to feel that the person you are talking to understands you. How they came to that understanding is less important.

When I was 22, my medical doctor sent me to some guy, after a string of psychiatrists that weren't working, her comment :You need to go to someone you can't bullshit.
Ren

I never felt any social pressure except among my age-group.

GT kids get singled out early on by bullies.

When I got to a new school, I got picked on and called a sissy because I carried books around all the time, spent time talking to adults, spent time observing stuff, etc. That got corrected on the soccer and football fields when I deliberately repaid people in kind.

I knew one girl who was a NMF two years before me in HS whose tormentors began picking on her when she was in 2d grade and it continued into HS where the coaches put a stop to it. But it left huge scars.

In another school, there were two kids who were later NMF. One played sports and was never picked on. The other did not and was often slammed into lockers, etc. The latter told me it had been going on since Middle School.

Forgive my ignorance, what is NMF?

Here is an article on the latest research on depression.

They are at the point that they have isolated the physical cause and are looking at specific treatments.

Short synopsis - its cause by brain cell death.

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2008/07/06/head_fake/

Sorry, National Merit Finalist.

Oh yeah, duh! (slapping self on forehead)

I was bullied mercilessly from Junior High on. Several years ago one of the bullies attempted to contact me. I was surprised how those feelings were able to resurface so vividly and instantly at just the thought of him.
He was pretty persistent and two years after he first attempted to contact me I "allowed" him to speak to me, thinking the worst.
We ended up having an awesome conversation. He gave me a very sincere and heartfelt apology. We talked on the phone for a long time. It was a good thing.

This last school year we had a bully issue crop up in second grade for DD8. Girls can be very mean. I swiftly and severly nipped it in the bud, with the school's support, it was a beautiful thing. The thing about bullies is that they don't seem to stand up well to strong opposition. Whether it be the bullied child, an adult or another child stepping in. There is also a whole lot of psychology behind the bully's behavior. I think it best if a child that is bullying can be corrected as early as possible for the child him/herself, not just the child that is being bullied.

Great article, thanks for posting. I find nueroscience thoroughly interesting. Exciting things coming in the next 5-10 years or so.

Neato,
I would love to know how you "nipped it in the bud". DS8 always seems to have at least one kid pick on him whenever he joins a group. Could you give me some advice on how to hand it?

Hi ebeth.

Be careful what you wish for.

Okay, I'd like to give you a long-term solution as well as the short term solution I used for this one instance, hope you don't mind.
Settle in, I can be longwinded, especially about things I am passionate about and preventing kids from being bullied is pretty high on that list.

I have a theory about the energy we send out to others either knowingly or unknowingly. This theory is wholly un-scientific and pretty anecdotal and metaphysical in nature which I'm sure may creep out those of you who are deeply intellectual and data-driven. sorry....

It's pretty much the whole philosophy behind "The Secret". Uh oh, hope I didn't just lose all credibility here.
Except, I'm pretty rational about it, if that makes sense.

Since you mention your son gets picked on pretty consistently when he joins a group I wonder if this theory could be applied.

I guess I can sum up by letting you know that when I was younger, the energy I was sending out was "doormat", to be simplistic and crass. I was very insecure, I felt different and since in my family different was bad, I felt that there must be something wrong with me. Not saying that's up with your son, just an example for clarity.
Bullies seem to have an uncanny natural ability to sense this and can easily figure out which kids they can take their little aggressions on who won't fight back/stand up to them. I would guess that's why I was picked on a lot.
Now, some adults still get bullied, right? In social situations, in the work place, etc.
I don't and I would guess it's because I send out a different energy. At least that's my opinion on the matter.

How I handled the specific situation with DD:

One "friend" of my daughter was telling another of the girl's friend that my DD didn't like her and didn't want to play with her. Then she was telling my DD the same about the other girl. Additionally she was attempting to convince other children not to play with DD for a variety of reasons.
Since I volunteer in the school I actually observed this behavior which was pretty much key to allowing me to actually be effective in getting involved to stop it.
I contacted the teacher and plainly let her know that while I don't expect all the kids to be friends, that this "campaigning" against my child was strictly bullying and requested that she look into it. Because this situation has ALREADY been addressed by the teacher previously, she sent it to the office.
The school took the matter very seriously and the social worker questioned the girls until she got to the bottom of it. The little girl admitted she had done all of this felt bad and apologized. The best thing the social worker did was to be understanding towards the girl who had made the mistake. There was no shaming involved and she did not get into trouble-because she had accepted responsibility for what she had done. She was told there would be a consequence if it happened again in a very matter-of-fact, non-threatening way.

One thing to keep in mind is that even though this worked out well, it could have easily gone the other way for a variety of reasons. As soon as I contacted the school and requested something be done I pretty much opened a can or worms. There were some parents who felt that I shouldn't have gone to the school. The parent of the child involved who is my "friend" was very mad and her only concern was that her child was in the principals office, she was actually enraged about this. She never considered the fact that the child had been terrorizing my DD and how this affected her.
When I went into it I knew that parents, teachers, etc. could have a very strong reaction to it, but I DIDN'T CARE. I think that's the most important thing. Bullying in unacceptable. The school policy states that. I wasn't going to stand by and tolerate it and to this day I won't make any apology for what I did, because I believe it was the right way to handle the situation, come what may. I think I would have gotten myself into trouble if I had been wishy-washy when it got uncomfortable. KWIM?

I don't know if that helps or answers your question, but I hope so. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help you with your situation.

Neato

Austin - this is exactly what Dr. Ratey in his book "Spark: the revolutionary new science of exercise and the brain" in which he also addresses depression, ADHD, etc. Interesting!!!

Neato - you absolutely did the right thing! Or at least, it's what I would have done.

Very interesting. I definitely experienced this:

After reading Dr. Ratey's experiments I half-jokingly wondered if this explains the leveling out phenomenon when GT kids are not challenged. I'm almost certain, DS could have been classified as depressed in K. It took over a month for him to return to himself during that summer. Now after a somewhat bad year, it seems that his brain just doesn't work anymore. But after a few weeks of fresh air, hikes in nature, he seems to be coming around. He's so nice to be around, not as whiny, not crying at the drop of a hat, throwing fits b/c his LEGO creation fell apart ... just much more pleasant all around. Perhaps he is losing vital neuronal connections in his brain due to depression or lack of stimulation.

Neato,
Wow. You are good. You pinpointed the problem pretty dead on, with respect to that the bullies seem to have built in radar for him. And I am the scientific, data-driven type and I still agree with you wholeheartedly! My son seems to believe that to be popular, you need to be noticed... and to be noticed you need to advertise that you are a little different. (at least that is my interpretation of his actions... he likes to draw attention to himself a lot.) Maybe he is an only kid who is used to being the center of attention. Or maybe he is just so desperately in need of friends that bullies realize that withholding this gives them power over him. He doesn't project "doormat" so much because he will not back down when he is bullied, which tends to lead to more serious problems. Or at least it does with boys when you are eight and they are ten or eleven and ten inches bigger and 70 pounds heavier.

So it is very common that if he goes to a week-long day camp during the summer, at least one of the kids will start by pushing him or stealing his hat or glasses. He is a small, skinny, non-athletic, bookworm of a kid who believes he should be treated as an equal to the big boys. It think the bigger kids decide that they need to pick on him to knock him down a bit and put him in his place. Maybe boy's social hierarchy is closer to packs of wolves where dominance is given to the biggest, not the smartest. Due to his grade acceleration, he is always the smallest fish in the pond.

We also have had a similar problem as your DD, but with neighborhood kids outside of school. We have one neighborhood boy who is 11, nearly 12, who wants to be the gang leader of a group of younger kids (two boys who are the same age as my son (newly 8) and a girl who is about to turn 10). He was caught lying to another boy (10) about a broken hockey stick. The lie was that he blamed the purposeful destruction of the hockey stick on my son, and convinced the other kids to lie as well. It was seven kids saying that they saw my son break the hockey stick and my son staring at them in disbelief. Finally one older boy told on the 11 year old. He has now decided to make my son's life miserable by making sure that none of the neighborhood kids will play with him. So when my son sees kids outside and runs out the door to play, he is greeted by universal taunts and threats. I have overhead the eleven year old telling the other kids to get a baseball bat and threaten him. And I have now heard the younger kids telling each other this as reinforcement. The main problem I have is that the parents won't acknowledge this bullying. I have even had the neighbor kids yell taunts over the backyard fence when both my son and I were in the backyard and the next door parent was just standing idly by watching it all.

We live in a very small community where all the parents believe that their kids are gifted. All of the parents believe that their kids will be CEO's of companies one day, and a great deal of importance is given to learning how to be a leader. (and I think a leader is unconsciously defined as one who has power over others.) The parents all hold their kids back a year to give them an edge over other kids, so that most of the boys in my DS's 3rd grade class were turning 10 during the year. And it is almost like something out of the Stepford Wives or A Wrinkle in Time where to be unique is to be suspect. So suffice it to say that talking to the parents is an exercise in futility.

Sorry to go off on a long tirade. I was just completely captivated by the concept of "nipping" such problems in the bud and by your assertive stance to protect your DD. I'm not an overly assertive person (okay, I'm extremely timid!), but I feel the need to protect my son from this, but don't know how. What would you in this situation? I'll throw it open for any and all suggestions!

What do I do about neighborhood kids when the parents will not step in? And how do I teach my DS how to not make waves and attract bullies without telling him to hide or feel ashamed of his uniqueness? And should I move this to a new thread? (I don't want to hijack a very interesting discussion on depression! I'm new enough that I don't quite know how to do that. Can I copy over Neato's first post to go with a new thread?)

The other kids are probably afraid of the bully, too. That's why they comply with his orders not to play with your DS. I think the main problem is that one older boy, the 11 year old who is the "leader".

My brothers were bullied in a similar fashion when we were growing up. I'm sorry to say that it didn't stop until one of my brothers beat that kid to a bloody pulp in the high school parking lot. My mother was horrified, my brother was suspended and the vice principal congratulated my dad on having a son who "knows how to handle himself" <eyeroll>

I hate to say this Cathy, but while I wish it didn't have to be done, it probably had to. Remember, there are more of them than there are of us. By that I mean us as reasonable, sensitive and actions guided by moral compass.

In theory I prefer to take the high road everytime. In reality; have you ever hiked down that road? Holy cow, you can go for miles and days without every seeing another living soul.



ebeth, I'm going to p.m. you.

I saw something on bullying on TV a few years ago--one of those "spotlight on bullying" news-program things, I think. Nothing much stuck with me except a couple stray facts:

1) Kids alone are the kids who get bullied. Kids with even one friend who will stand by them are usually not worth the bully's trouble.

2) The single biggest factor for halting bullying was if someone stepped up and said "Stop it" to the bully/ies on behalf of the child being bullied. Just one kid stepping out of the mob and saying "This is not okay" stopped the bullying in the vast majority of cases--the number 85% sticks in my head, though I can't swear that's right.

This refects my experience from childhood, which is why I remembered the point, I think. I was often the one who bucked the crowd and said "That's not okay." There was no bullying in my presence.

This says to me that it's really about building a healthy feeling of community among the kids, so that kids feel like it's okay to stand up for someone. A dog-eat-dog, everyone for him/herself playground is not healthy.

One other thought:

I think there's a big difference between the bullying done by boys and that done by girls. I was much more likely to say something to boy bullies, since I knew they wouldn't hit me and hitting was really their only mode of attack. (Boys obviously wouldn't have that same assurance that I had as a girl.)

OTOH, the female "queen bees" are a lot more devious--as 'Neato can attest!--and a lot more difficult to stand up to, whether the good Samaritan is male or female.

Oh Kriston, where were you in 8th grade when I needed you.......

I was a bully magnet myself <sigh>

I wish I'd been there!

Don't get me wrong: I was not the most popular girl in school because I didn't put up with bullying. But I knew who my friends were, and that was all that mattered to me.

The high school volleyball team was tough on me though. Lots of queen bees and not a lot of friendly faces there for me.

I'm definitely glad to be a grown-up!

Thanks for retroactively sticking up for us, Kriston!

Ebeth-

That