Would you pay $60+ for this book? I've currently got a borrowed copy but am bidding for it on ebay. The current bid is $54 and it ends in 8 hours. The only other prices I have see for it are $125 and $135. I've enjoyed the book and it is on indefinite loan. I'm thinking maybe the Parenting version (Topsy-Turvey Kids, I think) might be a better choice, and for less money.

Any thoughts?

My only thoughts are that I wish I would have bought those last few copies when I saw Dr. S. live earlier this year.....

$60, probably not, but it is a good book.

For me, it would definitely have been worth $60. I wish I could buy more - I know DS5's teacher might appreciate it. I paid the regular price ($25) when DD7's testing was done.

In my opinion, Topsy-Turvy Kids is no substitute (I have that too).

Whether it's worth that much to you depends on how much you believe your child is a VSL. I found the whole book fascinating, since a lot of it applies not just to my dd but to my other kids, to two of my brothers and to myself as well. It may also depend on what you are looking for - if you are merely looking for a few solutions, stick with the articles on the VSL website, but if you want an in-depth understanding, go for the book.

that's my two cents

Just FYI, it went for $74. I haven't decided how VSL he his, but my husband is defintely VSL, which I realized while reading the book. Thanks for the opinions.

I wonder if you could contact Linda Silverman at the GDC and ask if she can sell you a copy. Chances are, she has a supply and will sell at far less that 75$. I just got my copy back from a friend,
and I am interested in rereading to see how it applies to my girls.
I do think it is very valuable information for a strong V/S person.

It IS valuable info, but for $75, it might be info I could part with!

I'm trying to remember what was said when I saw her in person a few months back. I'm pretty sure she had books out, but I think it was along the lines of "this is the bottom of the barrel". Again, I'm kicking myself for not grabbing them all!

The GDC price is regular retail, $25. But last I checked, they are saving them for their testing families. We got one when dd was tested, and then to make a long story short I needed another one for a close relative, and I had to beg and plead to get them to sell it to me - it was not easy. It can't hurt to try, so make the call, but I don't think the GDC is selling to just anyone - I assume they're trying to make their supply last as long as possible because it's out of print. I wonder what it would take for the publisher to print more. Once, on googling the title, I found some sort of book distributor who had it on their list for a bookstore to order from (at regular retail price), but it was impossible to know whether they really had it or not.

OK I don't know if this should be a separate topic or not, if so I'll split it off. How do you know if DC is VSL? I've taken some online quizzes. If the cutoff is 14pts, my DS would score 12 lol. My friend's DD scored PRI>>>VCI. PRI=149 vs 126 for VCI on the WISCIV. WOuld that indicate a VSL child? But from her reading she wouldn't say her DD is VSL.

Dazey

Dazey - it's all a matter of degree - no one learns "only" with either their right or left brains, but there are people who heavily favor one over the other. Some people are an even balance. Some people might lean in one direction just a little, or a lot.

As for the on-line quizzes, I like better the table that distinguishes between the two forms: http://www.visualspatial.org/Articles/appendc.pdf

I can't say about your DS. As for your friend's dd, I wonder if it depends on what her subtest scores were for the PRI - I think certain subtests might be more indicative of VSL than others (block design, for example).

With my dd, based on the wisc iv, the testers were able to say with complete certainty that she is a VSL. So far I believe they were entirely correct, even though there are some things dd can do that are on the auditory-sequential part of the chart (e.g. spelling). I'd say that personally, I'm moderately VSL but without as dramatic left-brain weaknesses that my dd seems to have.

Her Block Design was 19, Picture concepts 16, and Matrix Reasoning 19.

I'll check out that website. Thanks!

I think the weaknesses are key too. DD11, my "poster child" for VSL has auditory weaknesses, and really fits the profile completely for VSL.

However, my other two children actually have higher (ceiling) block design scores, and while quite strong in the visual world, have more balanced profiles and less classic "symptoms". Only DD11 has the noteworthy split (PRI/VCI) for the WISC-IV.

Snowgirl - I didn't see a quiz at the link you posted. Can you post a direct link?

Thanks!

Yes, but it's a nice lesson on feet soaking, ROFL!

egads lol sorry about that! http://www.visualspatial.org/Articles/appendc.pdf It's not a quiz per se but a comparison chart.

I'm still getting used to my new laptop...

Woo Hoo! Congratulations Snowgirl.

P.s. ...totally get the preggo brain.

Ditto that!

You should have seen me preggers. I actually ran out of gas (because I forgot to fill it up) with no cash on hand because I'd left my purse at the office.

An incorrect link looks quite tame to me!

And best wishes for a painless and fast but perfectly healthy delivery!

OMG - Kriston - that's TOO funny!!!

OH OH OH I totally missed the preggo brain! OMG a new baby!! WOOHOO!! My baby is now 16months old...sniff sniff sniff

Ann it's good to see you are in a place of calm....well deserved.

Congrats snowgirl!

Still a baby, Dazey!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, I was SUCH an airhead when I was pregnant! Just an idiot! Really!

Did I mention I almost ran out of gas with no money a second time, after the first? And there was a big backup on the interstate, so I had to take backroads to get home so that I didn't get stuck there without gas? I made it home on fumes! I had to use some of the gas for the lawnmower and borrow my husband's credit card so that I could make it to the gas station, or I wouldn't have made it to work the next day.

And this was after I ran out the first time!

Seriously, I was a disaster! Since then, I have always kept an emergency $20 bill in my car. On the bright side, since I'm not preggers anymore, I've never needed to use the $20 again. It was a temporary condition. Thank goodness!

My middle baby turned 5yrs old TODAY! Triple sniff sniff sniff.

Oh dazey! They do grow up too fast, don't they!

Awww! Happy birthday, Dazey's baby!

hehehe, my baby turned 27 on Sunday. I don't remember having brain lapses during pregnancy, but I don't remember much now-a-days!

I saw an article once in an obstetrics journal about the average IQ drop for women in their 3rd trimester. It was significant (10-20 points,, I think). The point of the article was that even bright women will require different educational materials when they are "impaired."

My baby is 12years old and I'm loving it. I have never once looked back or been nostalgic about those first 5 years, but I have never been a baby person.

I'm 100% with you, acs. I wanted my kids to be born at 18 months, walking and speaking in complete sentences!

It helps that I have very cuddly kids, so I don't miss out on snuggles. If they stopped doing that, I might feel a bit more nostalgic.

(But I doubt it! I like to sleep!)

I keep reading references to lower achievement in VSL kids. ONe was at a teacher chat board - that using achievement tests to select kids for gifted programs will miss VSL kids. Can anyone speak to this lower achievement in VSL kids? If true, is it b/c classrooms are not geared toward strongly VSL kids?

Dazey

I'm no expert, but yes, Dazey, I think that has a lot to do with it. They learn differently, and regular classrooms often don't meet those needs.

I think even the achievement tests themselves often aren't written to make good sense to a VSL kid. That means that VSL kids might not perform as well as they could if they were given a test that met the VSL person where s/he is, intellectually speaking. Just like I wouldn't do very well on a test given in Portugese, VSL kids don't show what they can do as well if given tests that were designed for non-VSL kids.

I think you need to define "achievement". DD11 is a very attentive, committed student who gives school her all. But in what seems like a symptom of her VSL (LD?), she makes lots of seemingly careless errors along the way. Her achievement tests are not your typical 95th+ GT achievement tests, particularly in the more rote work.

But I would NOT call her an "under achiever" by any stretch. This is how I read that that particular bullet.

I think some of that depends upon how VSL a person is, no, Dottie?

Ok I can see how a standard achievement test would favor the verbal kids and that VSL kids might be at a disadvantage. For the same reason highly verbal kids can do more poorly on non-verbal tests such as CoGAT and Naglieri, I've read.

Sure Kriston...your post wasn't there when I made mine, LOL! I think of DD11 as pretty VSL, but she wants to do well in school, and tries her best to compensate and make the best of a more auditory setting. Our district is playing around with those learning styles too, and elementary at least has a strong visual component.

She does make...interesting....errors on your basic tests. For the 1st or 2nd grade SAT-10, she only had one score that qualified her to try the SCAT through JHU (score greater than 95th)...yet she cleared their bar with room to spare for programs in one area, and just missed in the other.

She "gets" a lot....but probably has a different way of applying her insight.

(Disclaimer: I don't claim to understand this child!)

Oh, and happy 5th to Dazey's little guy! (5 seems so young!)

I think it's interesting that on Snowgirl's link that "is academically talented" is contrasted with "is creatively, technologically, mechanically, emotionally or spiritually gifted".

Surely many kids have strengths on both sides, but DD11 is clearly the latter! She does well in school, don't get me wrong, but the other side is overwhelmingly her. I ran the checklist on her again last night, and she hits almost all of the ride side markers, and the other ones are just not really clear. She has very little on the left.

Don't you love those crossposts, Dottie?!

Your post reminds me of a piece of wisdom that I think you gave me months ago, back when I was trying to figure out whether DS6 was VSL or not. This wise woman (whom I will assume was you--it was either you or Grinity, I know) said that a child who shows many of the signs of being VSL, but who does lots of things well may just be REALLY smart!

I remember it well because it was actually one of the posts that helped lead me out of my GT denial.

So if a child is good at puzzles and mazes and all things VSL, but he's also an early reader who has a vocabulary bigger than some college students, he might not be VSL so much as he is HG+ and able to learn easily just about any which way.

Food for thought...

Hey,
I’ve been following along here and have picked up my copy of the book to determine if I could part with it for $75. I decided no.

A chapter that I reviewed emphasized that VSL do better on more complex tests than the easier ones. I think this is true in my daughter’s case. She did much better on the Explore test she took this March than she did on the ITBS last fall. The part that really stood out on the ITBS was her low score for ending punctuation and capitalization. She doesn’t have a problem with these areas IRL, but for some reason got most wrong on the easy ITBS. However, she landed at the 98th percentile for English on the Explore test.

Their school used to give the Terra-Nova which I believe has more above level questions than the ITBS.



That child might be both VSL and HG+. My daughter was also an early reader and had very high Verbal scores early on.

True. Good catch. I didn't mean to exclude that possibility.

I don't remember saying "really smart", , but I probably described that DS9 IS VSL, but also very strong auditorially too, and the combo often makes for HG+!

DS13 is also strong both, but not overwhelmingly so. She's probably more VSL than auditory, but nicely balanced, and solidly MG all said and done.

The good news for those of you unsure of these things, is that the pieces do fall into place with time!

All right, let me see if I can get this out right without actually referring to the book (that would be much too sensible). (and yes, preggo brain is still in full force. I can't finish the harder sudoku puzzles anymore - pathetic! and frustrating.) I think Silverman says something to the effect that kids with high IQ scores are likely to have VSL strengths, with or without the left-brain weaknesses - simply by the nature of the tests.

Ok, let's see what I can find in the book... Here's one section, not the one I was looking for: "Visual-spatial ability is another way of being smart; it is just less often recognized than the left-hemispheric, sequential skills that lead to academic success. individuals who demonstrate exceptional visual-spatial strengths, imaginistic thinking, complexity of thought, humor, empathy, musical talent, artistic expression, or creative imagination, are indeed gifted. They may not always score in the highest ranges on IQ tests, because these measures are geared more for sequential learners. Most IQ tests emphasize verbal abilities, with few items taht assess visual-spatial abilities. And these items are usually timed, so the examinee has to be fast as well as adept. The strengths of the visual-spatial learner are harder to asses (How do you measure if someone has superior visual imagery??), but these individuals are still gifted. As the very least, they should be assessed on untimed nonverbal tests in addition to verbal tests." Upside Down Brilliance, p. 50.

It sounds to me that there she was talking primarily about VSLs who may have left-brain weaknesses. I was looking for a different passage - let's see...

"Basically, I've come across two distinct groups of gifted VSLs: high spatial, high sequential and high spatial, low sequential. The exceptionally gifted have highly developed visual-spatial and auditory sequential abilities. It is interesting to note that they tend to be ambidextrous as well (indicating strong development of both hemispheres). The children who are brighter than they appear at school often have highly developed visual-spatial abilities, but poor auditory-sequential abilities.
...
"Exceptionally gifted VSLs can learn by auditory-sequential metnhods, but learning that way often feels boring. They prefer to learn all at once, in great intuitive leaps, where they see the pattern, and everything fits together for them into a coherent whole.
...
"They lead with the spatial system, and if they can't get the concept that way, they will resort secondarily to more tedious, sequential p;rocesses. Learning in a step-by-step fashion seems painfully slow in comparison to grasping an entire idea all at once - seeing it and understanding it completely in a lightening flash...
...
"It makes more sense to give these students difficultg enough material so that they, too, have to struggle to learn...'No student should be deprived of the right to struggle.'
...
"Dee Lovecky's warning about what happens when exceptionally gifted children are 'forced at too young an age into others' molds' needs to be heeded. I have counseled many exceptoinally gifted VSLs who turned off their innate way of knowing in order to fit in better with the mainstream. Some lost all interest in learning, underachieved, and eventually dropped out of school. Some forfeited their strong suit and became rigid auditory-sequential learners, allowing their visual-spatial abilities to atrophy...
...
"The other type of visual-spatial learner, hihg in spatial abilities and low in sequential abilities, poses an even greater challenge to educators. Reading, writing, spelling and calculating - the basic curriculum of elementary school - may be difficult for them to master. Children who struggle with the '3 R's' are not perceived as very bright and often feel dumb. It helps them to know that VSLs usually get smarter as they get older, and that their time will come." Upside Down Brilliance, pp. 63-65.

That still wasn't the passage I was looking for - oh well... (on the upside, my doc appt yesterday indicates preggo brain may be ending sooner than I thought; if only to be replaced by sleep deprivation brain)