Reading the posts about what would give our kids more: I think it is hard to go the middle way when you don't have struggles.

I hope that I give good values and create an appreciation in DD3, but then I look at her 10 pair of princess shoes and gowns and realize she didn't buy them, I did. We take her to Disney, we take her to Rocking Horse Ranch. We take her to spend the summer at the beach. At what point do I start those appreciation lessons? I am not good at middle of the road. And when my mother died, I was 16, my father canceled the SAKS credit card and made me ask for every cent. Not easy explaining to your father that you need money for Tampax. It made me get summer jobs and put myself through college. (Easier in Canada)

But that life changing moment was necessary for me to create a hunger to go after things I wanted. I cannot see how I create that hunger in DD.

Ren

She's 3. She doesn't need that yet. At 3 you just want to be sure that you don't say no and then give in to her. If you say no, mean it. That and meeting her intellectual needs to keep her challenged is enough hardship for a 3yo.

Ha, ha, being 3 is enough of a hardship for a 3yo...it's not easy being at the mercy of big people.

While I'd prefer the middle path, I think it can be difficult to find and stay on that one. Maybe more typical to zigzag between hard and easy and hope it all averages out. Which maybe it doesn't do - maybe you end up with the worst of both sides that way.

"Good enough" is my goal. I'm just trying to be a "good enough" parent. It sounds sort of in the middle....

Ren, your DD sounds a lot like mine. It is a pitty they cannot meet because I am certain they would become great friends.

As for the original question, I think that now DD needs the easy way concerning her needs in security and love, so when she awakes at night I comfort her and let her come to our bed. She will outgrow this need with time, and for that she needs to feel secure.
For her 'needs' concerning toys... I think she has as well the easy way. On one hand, I tell myself often that I should not buy so much stuff to her. But then I see something and I cannot avoid buying it because I think it will help to challenge DD and provide her with some intellectual growth. Even if it is a princess gown because she has a talent for acting. (I mean a real talent, not just the 'drama queen' talent).

On an anecdotic note: a friend whith a DS of the same age as DD often makes the remark about how MANY toys they both (DD and her DS) have... only her DS has one tenth of toys !!! (that's the typical Dutch way). I sometimes wonder if she knows how to count or maybe she is tying to subtly tell me something? What do you think?

Remember that post about our emotional baggage and how it impacts how we parent? This thread reminds me of it--I want my kids' childhood to be better & easier than mine. But sometimes I wonder whether I do them a little disservice by making things easier for them. I see them take some things for granted that I never would have and it gets me angry but then I realize that they have a sense of entitlement because I've always provided. But why should they have to struggle if they don't have to? I do want them to be "hungry" to achieve. I show the boys contest opportunities for art or essays with $ prizes. They decline. Hmmm. Difficult to say what is best.

It's not the number of toys that a child has; it's the willingness with which they were given. If you wanted to give her the 10th or 100th or 1000th princess dress, then that's fine. But if you didn't want to and gave in, then you are spoiling her because she can't trust your word. Consistency of message is the key.

Or so I've read...

It's interesting that this has been brought up. I chaperon my kid's field trips and there is always one child who complains the entire time about how boring it is, when can we leave, this is stupid, etc. I feel this is similar to someone giving you a Christmas present and you telling them to their face that you hate it. At some point along the way, this child was not taught to appreciate things that other do for him. This of course resulted in a lecture to my children about how to never behave!!!!

I don't think a child is ever too young to be taught to appreciate what others do for them. I always have told my kids to be grateful when someone gives you a present, tell them thank you even if you hate it because they didn't HAVE to give you anything at all. And if you do hate it you can tell mom after you get home, but never in front of the person. I have also always told them to think how they would feel if they went to lots of trouble picking out something you think someone will like and they tell you they hate it. These are small things absolutely, but something even a young child should be able to understand. I think small lessons can go a long way.

It is hard to appreciate things when you don't have to work for them at some point. 3 is definitely too young to have to work for things, but as she gets older you can institute an allowance system or something similar so she has to buy things for herself. I know my kids appreciate things more when they've actually had to work hard to obtain them.

I guess I don't think it is ever too early to start talking about being appreciative for the things you have, although I admit that certainly doesn't mean that my 2 are always appreciative of the things they have There are definitely times I wish they were more appreciative.

And Kriston, I totally agree that consistency is very important. If you say "no" you should mean "no". Although I admit I have failed at this sometimes.

Haven't we all!

To keep the number of toys manageable, we've always subscribed to the "if something comes in, something goes out" rule. We don't do garage sales with the excess, we always take them to charities. The kids either go with me or help load the truck if the charity is picking up. Talking about how some child that has no toys is going to enjoy them has helped to foster that appreciativeness in my kids.

I think that one of the things we are trying to achieve is create kids who are able to delay gratification. Here is a link http://select.nytimes.com/2006/05/07/opinion/07brooks.html?_r=1&n=Top%2fOpinion%2fEditorials%20and%20Op%2dEd%2fOp%2dEd%2fColumnists%2fDavid%20Brooks&oref=slogin

DD5 would eat the marshmallow immediately, never ring the bell and convince the tester that they had forgotten to leave the marshmallow in the first place!

LOL, neato.

I suspect that there are many careers open to people with those skills, not all of them exactly legal, but still many options!

when you say not exactly legal, do you mean not exactly illegal either?
Hee hee hee
I've always said she will be a leader......leader of the free world or a prison chain gang!
But I think we had this conversation on a long ago thread!

I don't think that this is so.

Certianly giving stuff when you don't want to is a problem, but I really do believe that our children are 'drowning' in stuff. This part of the world is living with a very odd relationship to material goods.

At the very least I would say that if your child's room or closet looks like 'too much' to you, then rotate the stuff you do have (and love) by putting most of it in storage.

Second - we have to have personal policies to guide us through the muck. When will we buy stuff? What kind of stuff? How much? For a few years at our house every new 'thing' meant that an old thing had to be given away - or thrown away.

It's hard to make these decisions, but it's wonderful practice! We're going to face a lot more of them as the child grows, and I think we make the way easier for ourselves by practicing now. Will we let our 8 year olds wear make up? Will we let our 11 year olds see horror movies? How often will dinner be from a fast food resturant? How many afterschool activites?

Believe me, we need personal policies, and practice in sticking to them. Having out child see us 'just say no' to appealing things when they are little helps then know that we mean business. BTW - here's another place to practice negotiation with a spouse, and learning to work together. Very often spouse have very different views on what a reasonable personal policy should be.

Love and More Love,
Grinity

Depack Choprah has a nice book about having a healthy relationship with material things.

Ah yes!
I was trying to think of that one last thing.

If one has too much stuff, and is trying to have more space and grace, then I reccomend Flylady.net as an 'Instruction Manual.'

Thanks for the post Grinity. One, I never buy when she asks and I don't think it is a good idea. About 90% of the time. I never buy when we are at Disney world and in the gift shop. But at Christmas I bought a 10 disney princesses and princes (convincing myself they are the same dimensions as Barbie and will slide into that era) plus 2 island princess Barbies.

I am very good at discipline and DD is a really good kid. Not that she doesn't try and act out, she is 3.5, but I just have to give the look and she knows the line has been drawn. Time outs are just a consequence but rarely acted on.

So it my fault on the material accumulation, all mine.

Ren

Cutting back on material things is very hard. I'll check out your recommended site, Grinity. I have been taking steps to end my book-buying addiction. When DS4 was born, my addiction transferred to books for him, and this turned out to be fine, since we read them over and over and over. But now that he doesn't care to read the books over and over, I made the big switch to the library yesterday. I was so proud. For one day. Then I read about Penrose the Mathematical Cat on another post, and of course our library system doesn't have it! I slipped already.

I admit, I have a strong love of books and always have! I have done the same as you, St. Pauli girl(we gotta come up with a nickname for you!)
I have carefully organized, sorted and stored the books I bought for each of the girls and put them in the attic when they were done. My hope is that when they have kids, I can give them back and they will share the love of those particular books with their children.
For the grandchildren!

Neato

Oh p.s. I just paid a fine of $50 at the library due to the sheer mass of books the four of us check out. It gets so confusing trying to remember whose books are due when!
I think the bookstore is cheaper sometimes!

We have so many books. I tend to buy mainly reference books (science, history, math) and save the fiction for the library. However, now that DS is reading longer chapter books, I find getting them from the library is not practical. By the time he decides to pick up the book, it's time to return it. So I've been buying books for him, and putting them on his Christmas list. But even these tend to be more high quality books that I know will pass down to the other 2 kids.

And now that our library fines have increased so much, it's getting cheaper to buy the books especially w/ 4 for 3 and super saving shipping at Amazon. Or at least that is what I keep telling myself..... i don't buy books for myself as I generally only have time to read 1-2 at a time. BUt DS likes to have a selection to choose from each day.

I rely heavily on our library's on-line system to figure out what is due and renew if I can't immediately locate the book. Otherwise our fines would be ridiculous.

We're also swamped in books. Really, we have lots of stuff, though much of it is just waiting to be used on a project. My current mantra (which I was reminded of by one of the mommy bloggers) is: "Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without." The fact that it rhymes seems to add to its appeal for my family. Though - we have always tended to follow the first three parts anyway.

I made the mistake of telling DH that I read somewhere that a good source for books is your own memory of your favorite childhood books. A case of encyclopedia brown books showed up at the front door step, and now i'm wondering what else will arrive! Where on earth can I put these? I going to have to start boxing things up. At least DS4 likes all the books we get him.

I agree with you that it is possible to have too much stuff, Grinity. Clutter is bad, and too much of even a good thing is just clutter. And I also agree that the child must hear no sometimes and you must mean it when you say it.

My point was just that you're not spoiling a child with stuff as long as you give it freely and without emotional pressure or manipulation, and as long as they love it. You might spoil your house, your storage system, your life! But you're not turning your child into a "gimme monster" because she has that 11th princess dress that you wanted to give her and for which she's grateful. I figure if a young child (say, under 6) says "thank you" without prompting at least half the time, that's a good sign that you've not spoiled your child. (I'm assuming that the other half of the time the child is *so* excited about playing with the toy that s/he forgets all manners! LOL!)

Our system for saying no: we started giving a small allowance and requiring small jobs at around age 2. These are two separate things--not payment for the job, but coexisting tools for teaching responsibility.

We say, "All members of this family have responsibilities. We all must contribute to the running of the household because we all live here. DS3, your responsibilities are to clean up your toys every evening, set the table and throw your clothes down the laundry chute. Because you are older, DS6, you must also fold your clean clothes, feed the cat, and help me keep an eye on your brother." These jobs are non-negotiable, just as DH's and my adult jobs are non-negotiable. We all contribute to making the household a nice place to live.

The allowance teaches fiscal responsibility as well as responsible choice. They have spending money of their own, so I do not entertain any toy requests in the store. I just flat refuse to hear it, saying only, "If you want it, bring your wallet with you and buy it. That's why you have your own money." (Though admittedly, I do still have to say this a lot more often than I would like!)

I do not edit their choices about what they do with ths money. The whole point is for them to have the chance to make mistakes with it. Better that they learn consumer skills when they spend $5 on a crummy toy that falls apart than that they wait until they've run up a $30,000 credit card bill (as one of our relatives did in college!)

YMMV, but our kids are much more choosy about toys when it's their own money they're spending. They rarely spend, and if they do, they use the heck out of that toy! The older one has already learned to save for a long-term goal and the joy of seeing his savings increase. The younger one is still pretty much Mr. Immediate Gratification, but he's 3. There's plenty of time.

And at least I have an easy "no!" for the "I want it"s at the store!

P.S. I loved Encyclopedia Brown!

I'll have to try the allowance thing again. I tried this when DS was 2 or 3, and he completely understood the concept and said, "i don't want an allowance. I want you to buy the things for me." I think I was so shocked I forgot about the whole thing!

SPG- One of the things that DS likes about his allowance is that he knows that there are some things that I will not buy him--video games are a good example. I simply refuse to buy video games. So if he wants them he has to buy them with his own money. That is why he likes his allowance.

That's a good way to do it, ACS. I think DH and I should sit down and discuss which things we won't buy. thanks.

Oh, man, SPG, that's one shrewd consumer you're raising! He sees the gravy train and won't get off. LOL!

Tell me about it. I guess we've done something terribly wrong as parents! Have to search for those supermom powers...

Nah, that doesn't sound like anything you've done! He just got consumer culture and how to "win" at it at a very early age. Not you! All him! LOL!