One of the things that's struck me having read this forum for the last few months is how many of your children were unhappy in preschool and early elementary school (if they even went) and that so many of you either withdrew them to homeschool or found other solutions such as switching schools or acceleration. As we discuss how to deal with DS7's continuing unhappiness in school, we continue to get comments like "I never liked school and I went." Therefore, I thought it might be helpful for DH to read your experiences in one thread, rather than my showing him many different threads.

So, for those of you who don't mind the repetition, could you please post your children's early school experiences (preschool through 3rd or 4th) here and what, if anything, you did and why?

Thank you!

Don't think i can add much yet to this post, as DS4 is in 3 hours/2-day-week preschool. Except to say he doesn't hate it too much now (his teacher "gets" his giftedness and was the first person to mention to us that he would probably need acceleration at some point). It's mostly a play-based preschool, and teach engages DS in things that will challenge him.

i sent you a pm with other thoughts.

My DS (HG+) was disappointed with preschool when I enrolled him at age 2:9 in a class with 3 year olds. He had been asking to go to school and I think he imagined it would be like Kindergarten (his older sister was in K.)

He was already reading simple words but his class was doing letters of the week and gluing macaroni to them. Several times he said things like, "I'm tired of preschool. I would rather go to medical school." And, "I want to get to Z!" (in reference to the letters of the week.) He didn't seem to connect with any of the kids in his class, some of whom were barely talking in sentences.

The next year I enrolled him in the preK class with "math" and reading pullouts. The reading pullout was good but the math consisted of identifying shapes, ABAB patterns and counting. DS could already add and subtract. His teacher observed that he was not making friends.

After the winter break, he was switched to the K class at age 4:2. At first, he was thrilled but when the K teacher started excluding him and saying that he wasn't really part of the class and was "just visiting" K he became very unhappy. He refused to do any work and he developed phobias. The teacher's handling of these behaviors just exacerbated them. The teacher's attitude was picked up by the other kids in the class and none of them would play with him. Nevertheless, he finished out the year there.

Due to his age, he was enrolled in K again at the public school the following year at age 4:9. At first, he was happy to sing the songs and do art projects but even these began to pall when they sang the same songs every day and did coloring and cut-and-paste every day. He didn't really play with the other kids, but he did interact with some of the older girls (age 6). The kindergarteners have recess separately from the older kids. He began to ask me if he could go to second grade so he could go to science and music classes.

In the spring, we made the arrangements for him to attend first grade in the afternoons and it was so successful that he was accelerated to first grade full time at age 5:4. This is a much better placement for him although he is starting to tune out during the more repetitious parts of the day. For example, his teacher does a calendar lesson every morning where the kids recite the days of the week and months of the year. DS has known these since he was 3 and I'm afraid he doesn't participate much during this exercise. He is not disruptive, however. He is very happy to be able to go to the "specials" which are science, music and PE. These were not available to kindergarteners. He is enjoying recess more because he runs over to play with the third graders.

Contrast this experience with my older DD (MG). She was an early reader and started school in PreK at age 4:3. She was reading easy readers at that time. She is a very social and highly verbal child and her teachers love her. She quickly made friends with other girls in her class.

She enjoyed K just as much (ironically with the same K teacher who later excluded DS) and was the top performer in the top reading group.

She has enjoyed first thru third grade at the public school because she loved being with her friends. Writing has been a challenge for her so she doesn't finish her assignments too quickly. She has been free to pursue her talent area (reading) at her level in her free time.

Her teachers have recommended her for GT screening. Especially her third grade teacher has recognized that DD is verbally gifted and also strong in math.

DD loves going to school and would hate to miss a day.

I'll try this again...

Here is my first post which summarizes up to my son's 4th grade year.


Originally Posted By: delbows

Our daughter attended a private kindergarten before her 5th birthday and excelled. Even though the school recommended she be admitted to 1st grade at the public school it feeds into, the principle refused based on age. She attended a second year of kindergarten with the public school and was labeled as gifted and a delight to have in class. I was assured that the 1st grade curriculum would challenge her because she was put with the teacher who offers a differentiated curriculum. This often meant that she and a few other students were allowed to read their chapter books while the teacher instructed the rest of the class.

About halfway though her 1st grade year, my husband and I began to make appointments with the superintendent and write to and address the school board at its public meetings. Our request was that they adopt a method to access readiness for early entrance and grade acceleration. We knew that our son would not be as compliant as our daughter and feared he would be incorrectly labeled because he would not tolerate being “taught” in kindergarten what he had know since he was 18 months. Our motive was to help other children as well as our own. We were met only with indifference and hostility from every angle on this issue. The exception were a few educators who privately said they agreed with us and a few parents who wished the same for their kids, but said they didn’t have skin as thick as ours.

At literally the last hour-one week before our son was scheduled to begin K at the public school, I called our local Catholic school again and literally begged for them to meet him. At the conclusion of the evaluation conducted by the assistant principle, they had no reservations about putting him in 1st grade. Two months into the school year, we removed our daughter from 2nd grade at the public school and placed her into 3rd grade at the Catholic school. We consider it as a 1-½ grade jump because the curriculum is far more demanding at the private school than it was at the high standardized test scoring public school.

We believed that early entrance to 1st grade was an easy fix, but were rather concerned about actually skipping a grade. It turned out to be so easy it was almost spooky. The only time I became concerned was the next school year when she entered 4th grade. Non of her prior public school experience had prepared her for the organizational skills and work habits necessary to efficiently tackle the homework required in 4th grade. She was over-whelmed for approximately 6 weeks. I understand this is the same problem many under-challenged gifted students face in high school or college when they finally reach a point were they have to study and work at a subject after coasting along with no effort for so many years.

Our son does well in school but really needs to attend a school for highly gifted students. He does not have a natural tendency to “think inside the box” which is what students are required to do in the lower levels of grade school. He could handle the subject content of two or more grades up, however, his hand writing is not fast enough to keep up with the note taking required for six grade and up. He exemplifies the asynchronous profile found in many highly gifted kids. He is a young scholar with the Davidson Institute and we are very grateful for their support. We know it will continue to be a challenge to appropriately educate him.

In conclusion, (if anyone got this far) my opinion is that a single grade skip in combination with a differentiated curriculum in a safe first step. Especially given the fact that your daughter is telling you what she wants. I believe that inattention and frustration are a result of lack of challenge and that as long as the task isn’t unrealistic, children do meet the high expectations their parents hold for them. My caveat, is that strait A’s may be unrealistic in the short term, however meaningful education will replace “excellence without effort”.

To up-date our situation:

Early entrance was not enough and ds did not enjoy the curriculum through 5th grade. Additionally, he has not really found any peers in his class even among the smarter kids although he does enjoy talking with the smartest kids two grades up (21/2- 3 years older).
He has also encountered hostility from a few teachers and been told by one of the kinder teachers that he should not seek math subject acceleration (despite being offered to skip 6th, then offered to skip directly to high school from 6th).

If he had been offered to skip 2nd, 3rd or 4th grade, he may have found a niche.

Since the administrators at our present school could not give assurance for continued math acceleration to Alg1 in 7th grade, as explained to him by an administrator that he is a minority and they had to concern themselves with the needs of the majority first, he will attend another private school next year. This one is expensive, but we received a considerable financial aid/scholarship award and they have also made arrangements for him to take Alg1 with older students.

You know all this, but here it is for your DH...

Pre-K #1: age 3, he was in a half-day, non-academic pre-K 3 afternoons per week. Socially that seemed to work great, but it certainly wasn't stretching him academically.

Pre-K #2: a 5-afternoon per week class, and though the director had promised me that DS #1, who was reading books quite well by then (age 4), would be able to go at his own pace without all the pre-reading things he'd mastered literally half his life ago...they didn't do what they promised. In fact, they thought he was *behind* in reading because he never used the language arts area...never ever! I advocated gently, and they ignored. I was frustrated.

In January, we had our conference and DH was NOT gentle with his advocacy. The school finally (and very reluctantly) agreed to skip the first pre-reading step that DS #1 flat refused to do. Once they skipped that, he did a week's worth of stuff in 20 minutes or so, and they were finally sold. He *raced* through the curriculum after that, and was the sole child in the school allowed to read books only once and get checked off for them. They knew that if he read it once, he could probably repeat it to them verbatim. Still, I felt like we paid a whole lot of $$$ for a school that had really pulled a bait-and-switch on us and just didn't get him...

Even so, he was happy, he loved school, and he did well socially.

K--half-day, non-academic, public--went pretty well because he had the first teacher who got him. She should be the poster child for effective differentiation, because she was able to give him slightly different directions than the norm and yet make the assignments much more appropriate to his needs. He took great pride in his perfect behavior record, and admonished other kids who weren't doing what they should be doing. He continued to enjoy school thoroughly and had friends there. However, he began to say things like "I'm the smartest kid in my class." This worried me.

His K teacher is the one who recommended him for GT testing in the spring of K, and it was when I saw these scores (not until fall of 1st grade) that I realized that DS #1 was not "just" MG.

1st grade: His first foray into a full-day, academic classroom. It wasn't pretty! The differentiation he'd received in K meant that he was well ahead of 1st grade curriculum, yet this 1st grade teacher didn't differentiate. In effect, he was being held back because he'd had a good teacher followed by a bad one.

He came home the first day of school, threw down his backpack and said, "I'm not going back there again. And if you MAKE me go back to 1st grade, then there's no WAY I'm going to 2nd because it will be even LONGER and MORE BORING!!!" He was miserable, cranky, acting out in class and at home. When he didn't pay attention or acted out because he was so thoroughly frustrated, his teacher took recesses away, which devastated DS and left him feeling like he was a bad kid. The change in him was dramatic and immediate. There was no doubt that underchallenge was the cause.

To top it off, he didn't seem to have friends at school anymore. No one wants to play with an angry, frustrated kid. And he was becoming a perfectionist, so anything hard for him--like kickball or basketball--set him off. He was isolated and unhappy, clearly a child at risk.

I e-mailed the teacher expressing my concerns about his bad behavior in school and supporting her. This was my "I'm on your team" e-mail. I got back a long and defensive e-mail that made it clear that she thought I was out of line. She said she felt that I had no confidence in her ability to teach DS. I sent an apology, taking full responsibility for what must have been a misunderstanding...I got no response, no acknowledgement. Nothing. I volunteered in class that week, and she said nothing to me about it.

DH and I spun our wheels trying to decide what to do. Go to the principal? Well, if she felt undermined by me, that would only make it worse. Agitate to get him into a different class? Well, without a grade skip, we feared more of the same, and that wouldn't be worth the trouble it would take to get him out of that class. Grade skip? Well, if the school would even allow a skip--a big if!--we weren't sure that a grade skip was right for him. (I think it might have worked for him, now that I know more about grade skips. But at the time, it looked like DS might want to play football, and he'll need the time to mature if that's the case, especially given the number of red-shirted kids in our area.)

Truly, I felt like this teacher was holding our whole family hostage. We had no acceptable alternative.

Then we considered homeschooling, and the clouds parted. Yes! In this way we could go deeper rather than faster if we wanted to, so DS wouldn't have to be bored, but he also could return to school at age level in middle or high school, when more challenging classes became available, and sports would work fine.

The decision was made easy for us when we (finally!) saw his K scores on the WJ-III achievement test, and we realized that even without any real special attention, either at home or at school, he was performing at DYS levels. That cinched it--our particular school was unlikely to be able to serve him regardless of what we did. And my two brushes with advocacy had been so deeply unpleasant and ineffective that I just couldn't imagine going through all it would take to even make a little progress toward what he needed. Homeschooling was our answer.

And what an answer! His attitude and behavior reverted to their former level literally the day he didn't have to go to that class. It was an immediate change. And now that I have sufficient childcare time so that I'm not going insane (!), HSing is working like a charm. It's been hard sometimes to find ways to go deeper rather than faster at the elementary school level, but I am getting better at it the longer we do it. We're doing things like reading about archeology and codes and engineering, things that he wouldn't get any chance to study in school at all. This seems to work better for slowing him down while keeping him interested than anything else I've tried. It's hard to go deeper with times tables and addition...

He's loving geometry (complete with theorems and a soft approach to proofs, since logic works well with him), and he reads whatever interests him and no one tells him to stick to the "little kid" section of the library. He's back to the easygoing kid who makes friends easily--even kids his own age.

It was a rough road, but we've found the right path at last!

I got lucky with how things panned out in our house. We early started DD13 based on our estimate that she seemed "ready". She missed the cutoff by weeks. After DD11, our "slow" child was in the system and getting the same "top of the class" comments that DD13 had always gotten, we knew that the status quo would never work for DS9. (Both girls tested 130+ in hindsight.)

Because of all the mentality that boys mature later, we assumed starting DS9 early (against everyone's well intentioned advice) would be enough, if not too much, but it never was. Having older kids in the system though validated my concerns to the school. I knew exactly what I was talking about, which was typically more than the behind the scenes admins knew.

Long story short, we've kept DS9 relatively happy with some pretty regular changes, summarized below, split by actual calendar years. He now has quite a few GT "perks" and seems to enjoy the school experience.

We didn't do preschool, so K was our first exposure to school. One DS read well by 2.3 yo and was reading just about anything before K. I was terrifed about sending this kid to K because he wanted to talk about physics and I couldn't understand how he would ever have any friends. I was so wrong. He not only liked K (got lots of differentiated work, although he obviously didn't learn much), but he loved the specials, the interaction with other kids, and also grew a lot emotionally. He learned to fit in socially quite seamlessly and made good friends, something I was so worried about. I don't think the lack of challenge would have gone unnoticed forever, but he's a kid who does well in his head. When bored, he plays chess in his head, reads at his desk, etc., and manages. He's now subject accelerated in reading and math a few years, still isn't challenged, and he's still happy. He's going to a public school HG+ program next year and I suspect he'll do well. He doesn't learn much currently, but that's ok with me. I suspect other parents would find the level of instruction given compared to what he could do intolerable, but I'm satisfied with this year. He gets challenges in other areas and he continues to grow socially and he's happy. I'm quite curious to see what happens when he gets a bit of challenge next year, but I think he's a PG kid who could manage in a regular curriculum, even though it wouldn't be ideal.

Another DS started K (learned to read well before 3, used to calculate the number of seconds until the K bus came for kicks in his head), and never fully got comfortable. By November, he complained about going. By December, he made up illnesses to spend a lot of time in the nurse's office. His teacher didn't "get" him and didn't differentiate for him. He was bored, but also having a much harder time fitting in because he is much less tolerant than his brother. He can't stand kids who don't follow the rules and behave like normal 5 or 6 yo, so he was perplexed about how to fit in. His teacher used him as an assistant which didn't help. The kids asked him questions and to read things for them all the time and that drove him crazy. It was a long year and motivated us to pursue testing and advocate for him. The next year, he got subject acceleration and a much better teacher who found ways to challenge him (and DS liked the older kids better). He's done better socially and found other outlets to provide challenge (he's really into sports and music). He's also going to HG+ public school program next year and I think he needs it more than his brother. I think he'll fit better socially with kids like him and he loves to be challenged. He would not do well with a standard curriculum and I expect he'd completely lose it if he had another year like K.

My DD started K barely reading and learned a lot in K, loved school, and did great socially. During K, I never thought she'd need much besides a GT pullout. By 1st, however, she became really bored with the repetition in math, reading, and spelling. She views school primarily as a social situation, but I think we need to seek greater challenge for her in the future. She's MG rather than HG, but she's really, really tired of doing addition and subtraction facts she could have done two years ago. She's moving to a self-contained MG class next year.

I'm quite sympathetic to the idea that kids ought to tolerate boredom and be able to manage even when they don't have a great teacher, etc. I certainly didn't learn anything in school until late high school, but I found ways to enjoy it and put my energy into E/Cs, science fairs, sports, and music. But our kids show differing abilities to do that and we've found that even minor changes make a huge difference for DS who struggled in K. Subject acceleration so that some part of the day might have exposure to some new concept made a huge difference. Having a teacher not threatened by an HG kid made a huge difference, and even little challenges during the day -- puzzles, brain teasers, math and logic problems to do when the rest of the class was doing something else made a great difference. And finally, after lots of advocacy, the school stopped sending him the "normal" homework with the boys and they do only differentiated math and spelling. I think that also helped the attitude considerably.

I really think you have to make the distinction between "unhappy" and what happens to a lot of our kids. DS8 gets unhappy if he has to go to school and can't stay home and play video games. When DS11 was 7 he didn't just get unhappy if he had to go to school. He cried uncontrollably every morning for three months and the teacher had to come out of the school to get him and escort him to class. There's "not liking school"and there's "NOT LIKING SCHOOL"! Only you can really be the judge of where your son falls on that spectrum.

We've done public gifted classes, curriculum compacting, telescoping, differentiation, subject acceleration, private schools, private gifted schools and whole grade acceleration twice. (and quite possibly homeschooling in that we have a math teacher once a week come to the house.) Honestly, none of it really works on it's own. It's the piecing together of all the options that gets you to a "livable" situation. If I had to single out the options that had the greatest impact I would say the private gifted school, the whole gradeskips, and the private math teacher.

As to when to start trying the variuos options? Well, I was obviuosly slow on the uptake since it took me until the second grade and three months of crying before I did anything. But since you are here asking now, I think it's probably time to make some changes.

I agree completely. What happened to my son's attitude and behavior were giganormous, lightning-bolt-sized signs that things were very, very bad. If he'd been whining because he wanted to play video games, I'd have told him to suck it up and get his coat on because the bus was coming.

Interesting that you make the statement, has always been unhappy with school, even in pre-k.

I have two very gifted, very intelligent daughters.
First daughter loved her first pre-school. Then we moved. The pre-school we sent her to in our new town was supposed to be the best and oh so experienced with above average kids. She was sad from the first day. I won't go into it, but I had a bad interaction with her teacher and my gut told me to pull her immediately. I re-enrolled her in her old pre-school and drove 40 minutes each day and she loved it. The next year I found a new pre-school in town which she also loved. K wasn't perfect, but she was reasonably happy.
She's had some sticking points in school, but luckily the administration has responded and tried to meet her needs and she is relatively happy now.
Youngest daughter had a great year in 3 year old pre-school. The next year was awful, she had a different teacher who didn't "get" her and was bored out of her mind. I pulled her mid year and placed her at our church pre-school. Again, miserable experience. Kindergarten year and she hates it. The teacher is not a good fit and certainly doesn't get her. The school is making an effort but I just am not sure it will ever be a good fit for her.
Thus, my location in purgatory. One is in heaven, one in, you know, the other place. That put's me uncomfortably in the middle.
There is not a whole lot of difference between them in terms of intelligence. It's their personalities that are so different.
We will try with the school for next year, but I am prepared to homeschool if it doesn't work out. Only the child suffers in a situation where the school environment is not a good fit.

Hmmm. My kids have done OK pre-k & K - partly because I worked like heck to find a better situation than I had. DD11's public school years (1-5 now) have been mixed, depending on teacher & available accommodations. DS5 is still in K and I'm trying not to get too anxious about next year.

But - my personal experience was not good, starting in pre-k. Which is why I wanted to make two points:

1) not all kids let parents know how miserable they are

and

2) kids can come to the conclusion that you, the parent, are unable to change the situation.

Once they reach that conclusion they may be less likely to share information. If it's not going to be acted on, sharing their pain may only amount to loss of face for the child. At least, this is sort of how I saw it at times, as a kid.

Complaining wasn't just a matter of losing face for me. I had a terrible time fitting in during grade school which really seemed to distress my mother. If I had complained, it would have been like confirming to her that something was wrong with me--and I really did believe that something was wrong with me! I had no idea there were other kids like me until I started attending a GT school in 8th grade.

I think those are excellent points, kcab.

I read somewhere (Deborah Ruf's book, maybe?) that the best thing you can do when a child has a bad school fit is SOMETHING. Even if what you do doesn't actually help, at least it telegraphs to the child that you understand, that you care, and that you have the power and desire to make changes. These are the things that matter most to a child. These are the things that give a child the hope to hang in there and to trust you.

YMMV...

Here's a brief summary of my DS5 and his journey to this point. Hopefully your DH can get something out of our struggles.

6 months old-4.5 years old: I worked full time and my son was at a daycare/preschool. He moved to the preschool class at 3.5 years old. When he entered that room he was a very happy, popular boy. The teachers all loved him, the other kids loved him and he never got in trouble. After about 8 months in that room the teacher told me that he was very advanced and he has already mastered everything she hoped to teach him for K. He was teaching himself to read and he loved puzzles and math problems. On the other hand he was also becoming a huge behavior problem. He was quickly losing friends and he would talk back and throw fits whenever they tried to give him a time out. IMO, they overused timeouts and it got to the point where he was spending at least an hour a morning outside the director's office and we were sending a communication book back and forth each day to discuss his behavior. My son was miserable. At home he was angry and the only thing that seem to make him happy and when we allowed him to learn in the evening. He begged for workbooks and math problems. We had him tested the following fall at 4.5 years old and he remained in the same preschool class (no K early entry in our district). His testing shocked us.

4.5-present: After the testing we decided to move him to a Montessori school for 3-6 year olds. It took a few months for him to settle in and my son is much happier. Is he working at his full academic potential right now? No, but he is a much happier child and barely has the same angry outburst and behavior issues we saw last year. This fall at age 5.5 he will stay at the school for the Extended Day program. I really hope that I can work with his teachers to keep him engaged as he is quickly going through the school's materials.

I have no idea what will be do for the fall of 2009. I get a little panicky thinking about it. There are no gifted or even private schools that accommodate gifted children near me.

Good points. My son had 2 fun preK years at a play-based preK. It has lots of animals, including horses, lots of outdoor play etc and DS enjoyed it. He had a horrible K year. The teacher didn't know the meaning of the word "differentiation." I was informed at Nov PT conference that he was ready for 1st grade. It was downhill from there. DS would cry most evenings in bed about school. He was withdrawn when he came home. We somehow made it through the year. It took a month into the summer to get my boy back, one who loved to learn. So, in September, for meet the teacher day, I told DS to be sure to tell me how he is feeling about school this year. His response? "Why? I did that last year and you couldn't do anything about it. Nothing changed." I could have cried. My son was learning that there is things in life that not even his parents have control over.

First grade was better. His teacher had a BS in science and had science stuff in the room. SHe did alot of projects in the class. They played alot of math games so while he didn't learn many new math concepts, the games were fun and reinforcing. The last 2months of school were hard. Since the advanced kids had been grouped with this teacher and they were done w/ everything for the year, I think the learning came to a halt and with it, DS's complaints increased.

In our school system, kids changed schools for grades 2-5. DS didn't get the teacher which from what I was told differentiates well. He got a teacher who is in her 3rd year. She is nice, has tried some things with DS (independent project w/ another science-talented kid; a battery kit to explore in class instead of math time and reading time; a few challenge math problems here and there) but he's been unhappy. For months, maybe 5 months, he has a stomach ache every morning or a headache or dizziness. He says "Why do I have to go to school if I don't learn anything? I waste my whole day at school." He constantly complains of never having enough time for things b/c he it at school for so long. He complains about not being able to do history with me b/c there just is no time. Plus, he lollygags w/ homework so that eats time as well. Homework has been a constant battle.

People and the psych tell me to enrich at home. Well, he is already enriched at home but now after being gone all day, he just wants to play when he's home.

With my son, he's not like most of the kids here, he's not light years ahead of his peers. When I looked at the Everyday math book, I thought if he could start in the last fourth of the book, he'd have been ok with it. But he's a thinker. It's my feeling that school is boring, partly b/c of things he already knows, but b/c of the lack of stimulating material. I don't think I'm explaining myself well.

I recounted a couple of conversations between my son and I to a teacher friend. She commented that if he's able to discuss books on that level, no wonder he's bored in class. He won't get that level of book or discussion at school.

WHile my son was advanced in math early - not to the extent of kids here - but quite advanced compared to his local peers, I've notice his love of math, playing with numbers, figuring things out on his own eroding. I don't know if it's the teacher or the curriculum (Everyday Math) or both. In several months, his 5yr old brother will probably be at the same level in math when initially DS was 2yrs ahead. He's been kept in a holding pattern I feel. I recently found out from DS that they are not practicing math facts. His mental math skills have completely eroded. I did Rightstart math with him his summer after K after the suggestion of a teacher friend. In K, he learned that math was boring and that he wasn't good at it. How could he conclude that he wasn't good at it when he was so far ahead of his peers? Well, he couldn't figure out things on his own so he felt he wasn't good at math. He blossomed with us doing math regularly at home. But during the school year, it's tough to keep it up especially after the baby was born last year. I had laid such a wonderful foundation for critical thinking and mental manipulation of numbers - and it seems it's all POOF. He needs reinforcement but to also be constantly moving forward.

I've talked to the teacher. SHe tells me that DS is so happy when he's at school. He comes in all smiles. DS loves the interaction with his friends so I"m sure he loves that part. He's been a bit happier recently b/c alot of things are going on at the school - non academic things. But it's hard to get him going in the morning. But when he was on vacation w/ his grandparents, they reported he jumped out bed, got dressed, got ready and came down ready to start the day. He also did not have one stomach ache or headache or dizziness and he also slept well.

I don't know..well, it's 2am, the baby woke me up and then once I started thinking about all this, I was too stressed to sleep...hence my long winded post....I'll probably delete most of it in the morning. I guess I'll try to sleep now......

Hey, Dazey--

Are you still up? It's only 11:30 here. I have a strong feeling that your son will become excited about math again. It is harder with two kids--I completely understand and I hope you are not feeling guilty. There is no way for you to provide the perfect enriching environment for all your kids at all times. That just isn't reality.

I hope you don't delete your post. It is very heartfelt and I think many of us have felt the same things.

Happy Mother's Day!

Cathy

I am prety certain that this is where DD4.5 is now. After all, I have been talking to the teacher several times in the year, but nothing has changed for DD. She has stoped to complain and pretends she likes the school. She copes by pretending she is someone else. She is such a good actress that the teacher is fully buying into it. She even pretends to me that she likes the school... however, while she is telling me that she likes the teacher and the school she looks away and her eye pupils contract significantly...

Now for you DH a little bit of history:

- at 2yr4m she started a preschool, two mornings a week. It was completely non academic. She took two months to adjust but then made a friend and started loving it and having great time there. However, at the same time, at home, she stoped completely doing puzzles, being interested in letters and wanted to watch TV all day long. I think this is where she got her visual problems.
She as well started to misbehave a little at home. Before that she was literally a 'saint'.
Preschool was not the only cause for this change (I was pregnant and burst quite easly) but it certainly contributed a lot to it.

- At 2y 11 m DS was born and DD was really miserable and acting out.

Then when she was 3yr+ she started to go all mornings to the preschool, thinking that since she liked so much it would do good to her... Oh boy, how wrong I was. This is when all the problems really started. First, the friend that she had made was not going all the mornings, only two (as DD initially). DD did not interact well with other kids (ages 2-4) at all, despite having a mega social character. I started to receive more and more complains about her and at home her behavior deteriorated horribly.

After a few months, we decided to pull her partially out and leaver her two mornings as initially. You should have seen her when I told her she did not need to go all mornings. She really looked like a heavy weight had been lifted from her shoulders and her behavior improved a lot that same day.

During the summer break we got her tested in Spain and the test results put her somewhere in the MG+ range - althought I have reasons to believe that she is in fact in the EG range- but that's another story.

Then at 4 she started a new Montessori School. It all looks very promising and the teacher seemed very receptive to all I had to tell her about DD.
However, the teacher did not get DD at all and complain that she wanted to activities that were 'too hard'.
Anyway, DD seemed to be doing better at the school . I had a conference with the teacher and she told me that. I talked to DD and she burts out that she was completely unhappy at the school. After that, DD started to complain a lot about the school and complaining about stomach aches all the mornings.
I talked again to the teacher, who then talked to DD who told her that all was very difficult,..
Long story short: The teacher obviously had no clue how to deal with DD and DD is coping with the stress by acting - not acting out - but pretending she is a little girl. She is now underachieving big time and having rampant perfectionism. She seems to have lost her love of learning - although, right now, after almost two weeks of holidays it has come back a little.

We are right now looking for solutions next year.

I am still thinking seriously to keep her home the rest of the year, but DH is quite oposed to the idea. After she is 5 she has to atend school, homeschooling is a criminal offense here...

Ah! and of course we try to do some afterschooling, trip to museums, etc but with an ... ehem.... quite active 21 months old DS is kind of hard.

Voila! That's all. Hope it was not too long...

I just wanted to add that I made DH read the whole threat and after we discussed the topic we decided together that keeping DD at home for the rest of the year was probably the 'less bad' solution.
I am going to have a chat first with DD about how she would feel if she stay at home and and if she agrees then ... we 'homeschool' for a few months

I will probably open a new topic, but now, I am going to have some rest, since bith DS and DD are sleeping ..... shhhhhhh

Hey, Dazey? Have you had your DS evaluated for GTness? I ask because I suspect his scores might surprise you. You keep saying things like "he's not like some of the kids around this forum," but the fact is, I would have said the same thing about my son last year, or even at the start of this year. Yet now that I've seen my DS's scores and have talked to a good psychologist who specializes in helping GT kids, and now that I'm teaching him so that I see every day just how easy many things are for him, I see that he *is* like many of the kids here.

YMMV, of course, because I don't know any more about your DS than you've told us. But your post just sounds so much like something I would have written before we had our DS evaluated. And last year my DS was performing only a little above grade level in math because that's all the higher the work was that he was being given to do. He was reading just a couple years above grade level because even I didn't provide books tht were harder than that. Now he's loving 8th grade geometry and reading at the 7th+ grade level because that's what he's being given to do.

What I'm saying is that kids who are thinkers, as you say, like yours and mine may be a lot smarter than they're allowed to show. Your DS's boredom and stomachaches say to me that this is what's happening to him. I suspect he's not just a little smarter, but a good bit.

If you haven't had him tested, I'd strongly recommend finding a person skilled in working with GT kids who can administer both an IQ test and an achievement test. I think it would be wise to get some more information about your son.

From what I've seen, people who hang out here and get something they need from this group probably have a child who is a peer of the kids here. Anyone is welcome, of course, but if the kids we talk about make sense to you, then yours is probably one of them. I hate to suggest GT denial to you, but I strongly suspect you may have a case of it...

Hang in there! If we can help, just say the word!

K-

Thank you, friends, for your help! And Happy Mother's Day to all of the moms!

CFK, fyi, I answered your question in a pm.

I'm interested to know if it helps your DH, questions. I hope it does!

Cathy - well I got into bed but laid awake for some time. THe toddler (whom I also refer to as the baby lol) has a stuffy nose she tossed and turned and moaned and cried out for a couple of hours. Also, I have a just turned 5yr old as well so 3 kids altogether.

I should also add that my 2nd grader is not DYS. He qualifies based on VCI of the WISCIV (well assuming my calc and Dottie's calcs are correct. I'm still waiting for psych to recalculate) and we haven't done achievement testing yet. At this point, given how the school has failed him, I scared to think how he might score on an achievement test. Teachers claim that they all even out ... well, yes, it's b/c they hold the bright kids back. NCLB - No CHild Leaps Beyond.

I asked him about school this morning. He said it was boring, I asked him to elaborate. He said b/c he gets the stuff at school over and over and over that I taught him at home. We talked about how he was ready and asking and needing to learn earlier than other kids. My DH and i are both scientists so science is in our blood just as a matter of living the day we talk about insects, nature, space, chemistry, physics etc. In the Spring, Summer and Fall we do a nature study at a local pond that we monitor weekly or more often. We watch the frogs mating, eggs being laid, eggs developing, hatching, tadpoles developing...well you get the picture. But every year these same topics are covered and more shallow than we've covered. Social studies has been new for him and he has enjoyed that but he says it doesn't compare to the history we were doing at home. He's really, really into WWII and loves Ancient History.

Anyhow, I asked him what does he think we should do. He suggested we talk to the Principal. Now I could not get this kid to even write a letter to the Principal asking for more balls for recess - I'm shocked he came up with that.

A friend of mine, her DS's preK teacher said that in all her 30yrs of teaching, she has never come across a child as advanced as her son. She went to our districts Parent meetings for rising Ker's. A mom asked about what if child knows everything the teacher had just listed. The teacher replied "Well then that kid needs to find something else to do." My friend met w/ the Principal after hearing that statement and the only thing she had to say was "the only kids that are bored in K are the ones that spend all day watching TV and playing video games. They just want to be constantly entertained." She wasn't even listening to her saying that her son had mastered those things 2yrs ago. Our district according to the GT coordinator has a No acceleration policy. Another friend was told, regarding grade skipping "Oh that's not done any longer." DS's current Principal (according to an inside source of mine) appears to be all-show and not much substance. THis is his first year as Principal, was VP. I really don't feel I'd get very far advocating. I think the feeling is that our district is the best in the county so they don't really need to do anything else. I hate the year to year changing teachers wondering if you're going to get *the* good one. And you don't know who the good one is until half way through the year until she find out he/she deals w/ your child. We had a good 3rd grade line-up (4/6 teachers were considered very good) but 2 of them has been moved to 5th grade while 2 of the poor 5th grade teachers have been moved down to 3rd. Lovely.

I'm thinking seriously of HSing DS in Fall.

Kriston - we cross-posted lol! I answered some of your questions I think regarding testing. I did after a 2month search find someone who specializes in GT kids. DS was given the WISCIV. The results were intersting and not at all what I expected. He came out very high in verbal (DYS numbers) and relatively low in PRI (127 or 129 depending on which of the numbers from the psych I believe) but I always had him pegged as a visual, mathy kid. But I read that algebraic thinking was more tied to VCI and geometric thinking to PRI and that makes sense w/ him. I have introduced him to very simple algebra and he got it instantly. I think he's the kid in the advanced math books who is good at figuring out the problem but slower w/ the computation (mostly b/c I think it takes energy and he's getting out of the habit of thinking). The psych hand scored the test and gave me those numbers to take home. He then computer scored it and got different numbers. I'm waiting for him to sort it out - that was over a month ago.

Anyhow, interesting comments from the testing. DS missed easy questions but would then perk up when the ? got harder and get those correct. He missed some easy block design puzzles but got the hardest problem right that psych said middle-high schoolers have trouble with. He got tired towards the end of testing and psych said he would have scored higher if he had split the testing into 2 sessions. Plus DS had soccer practice beforehand.

I'd like for him to take the WJIII to get a handle on LOG as Dottie has recommended but it will have to wait until summer as I'd like it to be done in more than one session. But I feel like, at this point, it might not be reflective of him since he's been held back by the school.

I'm reading this fascinating book by Dr. Ratey titled "Spark: the link between exercise and the brain." He talks about the school that implemented a radical PE program before school and how test scores have soared. Similar programs introduced at other schools, even low SES schools have had similar results. He then talks about the science of the brain. THe exercise induces BDNF which makes new neurons grow as well as strengthens connections in old neurons. Based on data in rodents, exercise primes the brain for learning. I thought - there you go, physiological explanation for dumbing down our kids.

"Gym class provides the brain with the right tools to learn, and the stimulation in the kids' classes encourages those newly developing cells to plug into the network..." I thought but what if the kid is not being stimulated in the classroom? Well, those neuronal connections are lost, those new neurons are lost. Not to mention that kids in our district only get PE 2x/week.

Anyhow, I don't want to go to far off topic. IF someone is interested in this book, I can break it out as a new topic.

Yup, sounds like GT denial to me. DYS numbers on verbal still counts, you know!

My DS has DYS numbers for PRI but not for verbal. Doesn't matter. One of the two is all it takes. And FWIW, his math scores were his lowest scores on the WJ-3 achievement test. He seems like a highly verbal kid, though his PRI would seem to indicate that math should be his strength. Also FWIW, our DS does seem to me to be a natural-born engineer, so when he gets to more conceptual math, I think he's going to really dig into it. He's not a big fan of computation either, just like your son. For that reason, homeschooling seems to be working pretty well for him. I'm able to do more conceptual stuff so as to keep his love for math learning alive. Killing that love before he gets to the higher math and engineering stuff is my greatest fear. I have my bad days, but I'm sure I'm doing better about keeping it alive than the public school did.

BTW, in an IQ test, boredom with the easy questions and interest in the hard ones is a good sign that you have an HG+ child on your hands. I'm just sayin'...

How your DS does on the WJ-3 might surprise you. When our DS took it, it certainly surprised me! If your son is doing algebra, he's *way* ahead of what our DS was doing, and still our DS scored at the DYS-level or above on 3 of the 4 broad areas that DYS looks at. Math was the only one he was below on, and he missed that by just one point, with no real effort on our part or the school's part to challenge him in math. (I'm verbal, so the verbal challenge stuff came naturally to me. Math...not so much!) Anyway, your son is young enough that just because he hasn't gotten it at school, it doesn't mean he's not getting it. You know?

I suspect you're going to have to admit that you're "one of us" sooner rather than later...

And thanks for the book rec. I'm a big believer in exercise, especially for kids!

What impresses me most about this thread is that someone got their DH to read it in its entirety! Congratulations Isa!

Ouch, Dazey, both for your DS's comment and because some of what you say reminds me of my DD's experiences. I hope you find a good solution for your DS for next year.

"Spark" sounds interesting. I've heard that kids who walk to school do better also - though I have no idea right now whether the source of that information was any good - I think I first heard it >10 yrs ago. DD's school only has PE once a week, but we walk to school as often as we can.

Today, I gave DS the surveys from "RE-forming Gifted Education." He did the subject ones. Of course, science came out nearly 4.0. Arts came out low motivation lol. He hasn't completed the reading one yet. Interestingly, math came out low motivation (2.31). I asked him about this and he said b/c there isn't anything to learn about math beyond addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. I wonder if he thinks this b/c for him, he's been doing this for 3yrs and haven't seen much of anything else at school. I really want to work on his math motivation this summer. He scored low (2.80) on "attitudes about school and learning" as well. The motivated about school range is 2.67-3.33 while highly motivated is 3.34-4.00. Not below the lowest score range but near the bottom of it.

All of this from a kid who used to ask me math problems before bed and make up his own math problems for himself. He was always very intense about learning new things.

the scales are 4 (always agree), 3 (usually agree), 2 (sometimes agree), and 1 (disagree).
Schools is the best place for me to learn. 2.
School excites me. Every day is great 2.

So I guess this begs the question - if he doesn't feel that school is the best place to learn, why is he spending 7hrs/day 5days/week there?


About denial....uh well I'd prefer to think I'm in denial rather than I'm right. Ha Ha Ha.

I think WJ will have to wait until summer when DS has more free time. Plus the psych was having knee problems and contemplating surgery. He's not returned my calls to regarding score recalc and scheduling the WISC and it's been a month already. I guess I'll leave another message this week.

Thanks for helping me to think through all this and being a sounding board as well as giving advice!

Never enough time Dazey

It's scary to see that sort of change, isn't it? I know that's how I felt. What's happening to him? This is not the boy I sent to school.



That was the same question we asked about our son. I don't mean to overidentify with your situation, but I know that when we started to see these things with our son, it became clear to us very fast that we were either going to have to advocate hard for some significant adaptations in the way the school taught him, or we were going to have to homeschool. Something had to change.

Keep talking if it's helping.

Oh and regarding him doing algebra, I'm talking the easy Singapore Math problems you can solve w/ bar diagrams. I then showed him the algebraic method for doing it and he got it. I'm going to get back to having him do a page in the SM CWP books on the weekends and see if that lights his fire again.

Hey, Dazey. Your DS sounds similar to mine, so I found that survey on a google site and gave it to him the best I could (couldn't complete all the surveys, as not all pages were there). Attitudes about school were 1.6, math was about 1.7 (that one surprised me) and science was 3.8. Everything else would be low, too. There is no joy left about school, that's for sure. I hadn't read that book and now I think I might take a look. Sorry your guy is having such a hard time, too.

And re: your question, "if he doesn't feel that school is the best place to learn, why is he spending 7hrs/day 5days/week there?" - this is exactly what my son asks me!

Dazey - re: your son missing the early questions on the IQ tests. In case you do testing again, just wanted to add that before DS4 was tested, I got all sorts of wonderful advice from folks on this forum re: preparing my son, who did not like doing anything he already knew how to do. Based on this advice, I told DS that he should answer the questions that seem to easy or even silly, because that's how to get to the more interesting questions. Also, I told him he could ask for a break at any time if he was feeling tired.

St. Pauli girl - I think I did mention to him that the ? would start off easy and then get harder. I will definitely remind him of this before the WJIII.

Questions - what grade is your son in?

Same - second.