homeschooling and socialization

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I am a huge Dr Laura fan. I thought this blog was timely, considering the discussions about homeschooling.

Very interesting!

I have to admit that until not so far in time I was totally against HS, thinking that it was completely insane ....

And now, here I am, HS, even though only for a few months and wishing it was legal in this country.

I don't often agree with Dr. Laura, but I do on this.

OMG, I seriously think that article just pushed me over the edge. She is seemingly describing MY DD5 in that last paragraph. I bookmarked it and will be e-mailing it to DH and DG.

Well, in some cases and some places, I think kids *are* homeschooled to shield them from "a certain element" as they will say, and I don't think this is necessarily a good thing. When this shielding has at its root racism or classism, the so-called "white flight" in action, I think it is not healthy. Monolithic homeschooling of that sort is incredibly distasteful to me, though I recognize the rights of the parents to practice it.

But in our case, coming from a white-bread-and-mayo suburb of middle-to-upper class families, we see a lot more racial and economic diversity in our homeschool group than DS6 saw in public school. So luckily for me, this is one liberal dilemma I don't have to guilt myself with.

I do think parents who take it upon themselves to educate their kids *should* make an effort to expose the kids to a wide variety of people and opportunities (just as I think schools should do the same for kids within their walls), but I recognize their right to stick to monolithic views if that's what they prefer. Unfortunately, I do not rule the world.

Obviously I agree with Dr. Laura's main point that homeschooled kids are not all maladjusted serial killers waiting to happen. Overall, HSed kids are at least as socially capable as their traditionally schooled peers. She's clearly right about that!

Thanks for sharing, OH-Oma.

I thought it was particularly interesting that the research used Christian homeschooled kids compared to Christian traditionally schooled kids. It seems Christian homeschoolers have the biggest stigma attached as being narrow minded, bigoted people. Research shows that just isn't true.

I certainly agree with you that this assumption is unfair! There are bigoted Christian HSers and there are open-minded Christian HSers, just like there are bigoted and open-minded segements of any population. Such assumptions about Christian HSers are unfair.

Still, as Spock ( ), I feel I must say that it doesn't seem to me that this research from the website necessarily shows what you're claiming there.



Even if the study evaluated narrow-mindedness and bigotry as part of that adjustment to college (it might not have--the website doesn't say, and I can imagine that a bigot might still adjust well to college), we could draw no conclusions about relative levels of bigotry compared to non-Christians from this study because non-Christians weren't included in it.

*All* the Christians (HSed and not) might have been more narrow-minded than *all* non-Christians, but we can't know that because no non-Christians were part of the study. It is equally possible that *all* non-Christians were more bigoted than *all* Christians. It's just not knowable from this info.

I don't mean to be argumentative. As I say, I think your point is 100% right and I think stereotypes are dangerous. I just don't think this study is the one to point to to prove your point.

Sorry to slip into my annoying argumentative writing teacher shoes there for a minute. I promise to stop now!

We're discussing, not arguing!

I think I should have stayed with the argument that one of the negative comments about homeschooling is the lack of socialization; and Christian homeschoolers seem to take the brunt of that accusation also. By having a narrow focus on only Christian public shooled and Christian homeschooled college students they were able to compare social skills between the two groups. Maybe a wider variety of home & public schooled students would have been a better sample, but then there would be other factors to be considered.

I agree with you completely! I know I get tired of the doggone "socialization" question. Christian homeschoolers are probably ready to scream when they hear it!

That's why when I'm asked "But what about socialization?" I often respond with a broad grin and my standard answer: "Oh we lock DS6 in the basement and throw books down the stairs to him. Is that wrong?" <blink, blink>

It gets a laugh, and then I explain about our highly active HS group, his many playdates, his busy social schedule.

I detest stereotyping, so I just want to say again that I think what you're saying is right on the money.

The socialization of homeschooling isn't as concerning to me as having a dialogue with such a limited number of folks (e.g. a tired mom, a whiny brother, etc.). Instead of socialization, my concern would be peer group (same as my concern in normal school setting).

I'll explain. I always have taken my kids to museums and they've loved it. I've talked to them about the various topics and followed up with library books about those topics afterwards.

When my oldest DS went to 1st grade in a class for highly gifted, the class visited a museum we had frequented as a family. The kids were so animated, intensely discussing and demonstrating ideas, extrapolations--it was a whole new level beyond anything we'd ever done as a family. I think that was when I decided that the peer interaction was the #1 best thing, independent of the teachers or anything else. I still believe this. Unfortunately some classes don't have that synergy, but when you find one it's amazing.

cym, I think that is why I love my kids school so much. It is an accelerated magnet and the kids there are mostly on the same page. Lots of them like chess and going to museums and learning about great composers and artists, etc., and it is cool to be smart! You are so right, finding a great peer group is priceless.

Of course, in most schools, kids don't get to talk much to their peers during class. At least at the grade school and jr. high levels, the in-class interaction with peers is usually quite limited. Social time--20 minutes of recess and 30 at lunch--is about the only time the kids have to talk to anyone.

I'd bet money that DS7 gets a lot more time to interact with true peers in a learning environment than he got in public school. Granted, I make the effort to seek those opportunities out, but so do most homeschoolers, Christian or not. At least in the traditional school classes DS7 has been in, the kids talk to the teacher when called on (a few times a day), but they don't talk with one another much during class time. Or if they do, they get in trouble for it.

I'd suggest that the museum visit is usually a special occasion. Most classrooms aren't anywhere nearly as free-and-easy as that setting. Whereas for the homeschooler, museum visits and the like with groups of kids can be the norm.

Just my take...

Well I think it really depends on the teacher and probably the particular school's policy. My kids have had the most wonderful, laid back teachers where the kids interact with each other and the teacher all during the day. I'm sure it isn't that way everywhere but it has definitely been our experience.

It's a good policy. But it sure wasn't the policy at DS7's school. From what I saw when I volunteered in the classroom, "Sit down and shut up and write down the answer I just told you" was the rule in DS7's 1st grade class.

Even in K, with a teacher who was much better, there just wasn't a lot of interaction among the kids.

Hmmm. Maybe the school is even worse than I realized...I assumed that this approach was pretty standard, given the school's high ranking in our area. The K teacher's classroom approach didn't look a whole lot different from what I remember from my school experience. (The 1st grade one was worse, but only in the number of repetitions the teacher required of the kids and the utter lack of allowance for kids who already knew the answer. The amount of peer interaction was pretty much the same: virtually none.) As a result, I guess I assumed virtually none was the norm. Maybe not...

So, if I may hijack the thread for a minute to pursue this line of thought...

*How much peer interaction goes on in your kids' classrooms on a typical school day, especially in the lower grades?

I'm particularly interested in responses from parents of kids in non-GT schools, public or private, as I would hope that there would be more peer interaction in a GT school. (Though I guess my assumptions could be wrong about that, too...)

EandC, sounds like your kids have a wonderful situation. Hopefully it's not too unique and others experience that as well!

Kriston,
I saw what you saw in K and first for both girls. Second was much better for DD8. There is one first grade teacher that provides a pretty good classroom environment, let's hope DD5 lucks out.

There is a HG magnet that I suspect would be more of an environment like EandC mom describes. It starts in 4th grade.

If you are talking intellectual peers......our district's dual level GT program attracts a lot of highly intelligent families, so there is probably more than our share of peers. The problem is that in the past, they have split them up in different classrooms. This was the first year that I observed them together in the same class for DD8's grade. If the administators are very concerned with social and emotional issues like they present themselves to be, they really should be letting these kids stay together.

Well, 'Neato, rightly or wrongly, I just assume that with these HG+ kids in the public school, then true intellectual peers are not in the classroom. I wasn't really dealing with that.

My question is just about interactions with agemates/classmates, regardless of anything else.

At DS7's school, talking to other kids was discouraged pretty much at every turn. There were no opportunities for interaction in the classroom that I saw during the times I volunteered. Even when I helped in the library, a time when kids are milling around looking at books and interaction seems natural for them, I was instructed to keep them from talking to one another, even at a whisper.

I suppose I could have just always been there at the wrong time and for the wrong activities, but that seems unlikely.

No, I'm in the school a lot, I think you got it right. In public school a lot of the teacher's responsibility is managing the classroom, behaviorally. I think a lot of good quality learning time is lost to that.

Oh my do you have the wrong impression of MY school!!!! Too much group work if you ask me, but LOTS of time for interaction in one way or another!!!!

Maybe it's just a little more difficult in the lower grades, when the kids are in the same class with the same teacher all day.

Thanks, 'Neato. I appreciate your input.

If so, then I have to think that interacting in homeschool discussions regularly--even if only with a tired mom and a cranky little brother ( )--isn't any worse and might be a far sight better than being in a room with people and yet not being allowed to interact with them at all.

I know that end of things was hard on my social but introverted boy! It was hard for him not to talk to the other kids when he was bored and they were right there with him, but by the end of the day he was worn out by all the time spent with people. It was all very unsatisfying for him.

He's much happier now that we can choose when to be with people--and really be with them completely!--and when to be alone.

I guess I find that argument against homeschooling to ring false to me. I think homeschooling lends itself to *more* opportunities for discussions with peers, at least when kids are young, than does a traditional (non-GT) school setting.

I'm still willing to be talked out of my position though.

We overlapped, Dottie.

What kind of group work? I'm intrigued.

I won't try

I'm glad things are working out so well for you guys.
Well, good night all, DH just came home and we are tivo-ing lost and we need to go watch it!

That's where I'm headed, too! Off to get "Lost!"

This was my take on K-5th...I really haven't been in the classrooms much after that.

I'm off to bed...I'll have to ask the kids more about the group work stuff, but they do lots of things with their "tables" (groups of 4), "elbow partners" (2), etc. There is a lot done independently too, and while our schools aren't the greatest by any stretch, "lack of interaction during the school day" is NOT a weak point by far from my observation.

DS had tons of interaction all through grade school. In K and 1st, there were no desks, kids sat in groups at tables and worked together on projects and were encouraged to talk with each other as they worked. If they weren't talking enough, one of my jobs as a volunteer was to go to the quiet table and stimulate them into talking.

DS's 4th and 5th grade teachers were great managers of classroom discussion and really the classroom felt more like an ongoing conversation between the teacher and the kids than just managing kids behaviour. When I volunteered in 4th grade, I led a book discussion group and we really did discuss. All the kids spoke, had ideas, and riffed off each other. They weren't brilliant or anything, but they certainly were not stifled spirits!

What Kriston and Neato are describing sound absolutely nothing like our school. But then, remember, our isn't a very good school. Nobody moves to be in our district. The parents don't care what kind of college their kids go to or even if they go to college. I think this gives the school a lot more flexibility!

Hi Kriston,

I actually had help from my dd on this one as parents are not in the classroom a lot.

She told me they have plenty of interaction with one another. They always have group projects and are allowed to do "research" as a group. They also read to each other and with each other everyday.

Her room 2 teacher allows them to go outside the classroom and do their silent reading on benches right outside their classroom when it is a nice day.

They don't have individual tables but rather work on group tables. They have a lot of interaction specially in science and art. Their drama and music classes also offer great opportunities for interaction. There are still times when they need to sit quietly and listen to the teacher, but I don't think it is the majority of their day.

I forgot to mention intellectual peers as well....I just learned of another kid that tested GT, and another that "just missed". I truly wouldn't be surprised to learn that 1/3 or more of our kids are in the 120+ range for IQ. Maybe not that high....but there are quite a few "close" intellectual peers, particularly for my girls.

Kriston - my K and 1 experiences are similar to what you saw. We had class sizes of 24 and 26. I get the feeling the past couple months DS doesn't even bother raising his hand any more because he gets so little chance to participate. There is little to no group work except for special events (like the do have 4th grade buddies they meet up with once a month or so). It definitely seems like the focus is behavior management. I think it might be a whole different ball game with 5-10 less kids in the class. Interaction is definitely limited to recess, lunch. And misbehavior in class!

I even observed music class one day and it was incredibly quiet and non-interactive. Our school is very popular. They got enough applications for 7 kindergarten classes next year, but only have room for 3 classes.

And bianc - how much do we need to DOK?

I was also going to say, I think our school is similar to Dottie's in terms of intellectual peers. 40% of kids are probably in that above 120 range. DS loves school socially. He is a popular kid.

It has taken me a long time to get over this denial about where DS stands. Everyone talks about how advanced curriculum is at our school and to me it doesn't seem advanced at all and we could use a whole lot more. Obviously, many GT kids are being served well here.

Our school is very social, too. They have 1 and 1/2 hours for lunch and recess in the middle of the day. There are two other 20 minute recesses during the day. In addition, they have 1 hour 15 minutes of P.E. every day which is usually some team sport - hockey, rugby, basketball, etc. And I've been in the Art room during class and it is wondrously noisy!

This is a small school so classroom management without rigid rules is more easily accomplished, I guess.

CFK - WOW on the PE! I want to move to your school. In our district, kids get PE twice/week for about 25min I think.

I also have been told how advanced our curriculum is and how it isn't developmentally appropriate and w/ my son, I just don't see it. He needs more and faster. I just learn to keep my mouth shut.

Ok. So I will give you guys one (or a few) more reason(s) to DOK and then I promise to be quiet for the rest of the school year (10 more days!!)

Room one has become even smaller (only 15 children per classroom) with two teachers.

We are getting five new teachers. Our new coordinator of Educational Technology for the lower school comes with a Masters in Technology in Education from the Harvard Graduate School of Education. Although this is the teacher who I am most impressed by, all the others come with equally impressive credentials.

The new center for communications will be completed next month. It will have 2 additional classrooms, a great library (with a special place for authors to come and read to the small children) and a conference room to be used for distance education (it will have state of the art computers)

The science rooms (both lower and upper school) will be upgraded with more modern equipment/new furniture.

The computer labs will have new computers.

The new electronic white boards will be installed. Then next year the school will go to one-on-one laptop program.

All in all, I wish i could be six again and go back to school

Sorry guys, I don't mean to brag, it is just that our headmaster just hosted a "headmaster's coffee" to update us on all the things going on next year.

blanc850a
I don't think you should brag. Your kid goes to a very expensive school, which is 'elite' but look at your trouble in accelerating her. There are 'rooms' not grades with which you must deal. Kids aren't accelerated through grades, not sure why you spelled it out that way. And the huge moneyed factor. I don't think this is what the typical gifted child deals with in schools. All in all I think you should tone it down and not make others jealous of a school that I don't think is that great for gifted kids.
You can be six again, and I can be banned from this site, but whatever, you are wrong for gloating about something that is expensive and for rich people and some granted scholarships by the by.

While it's totally out of the question for us to ever even consider Bianca's school, for some of those very reasons, I still enjoy reading about how great it's going for her kiddo. It gives me hope and ideas to implement here at home. Feel free to share around me at least Bianca!

And Calizephyr, I do understand....we have no such options, and no funding if we did. At times the "drool" does start to puddle. If this was everyone's story, I'd probably find elsewhere to post, but Bianca gives us all hope. I enjoy her excitement for her daughter's situation.

I also support Bianca's post. Someone in Queens wrote me about her efforts. She initiated middle school gifted programs in her district, upped the curriculum for G&T with accelerated math, worked with the prinicipals to enhance gifted curriculum.

If you want to push the advocacy, it can be done. And hearing Bianca's experience provides us with ideas. I am not so ambitious to initiate gifted programs but would like to support anyone who does.

It is good to hear what is available and the things that can be done.

Ren

Yes, I was just joking with bianca. I love hearing about her daughter's school.

In fact, I don't understand why you think it's "not so great" for GT kids, calizephyr. There's more to a GT education than acceleration, and it sounds like bianca's kid's needs are being well-met.

I do understand what you're saying about the class issue. I certainly don't love that the school is an expensive private school and all the class issues that surround a school like that are troubling. But that's why we DOK: if only our kids could get such services at public schools.

It is good to hear about what's out there, though. Knowing what exists helps us to understand what's possible.

First of all, since I've been on this board I haven't experienced Bianca to be bragging about her good fortune in school placement in a malicious way. On the contrary, it's good to know there are schools in current operation that can accomodate HG+ kids.

Additionally, I don't think calizepher is at all in danger of being banned from this site for expressing frustration at the inequity of these very rare programs.
After all, that's what this site is for.

Getting together and expressing support for both situations.

I do want to hear about schools like Bianca's because it gives me ideas about what could work. On the other hand, yes, it can be incredibly frustrating to be sitting here knowing my child could benefit from such a situation, yet never have access to it.

We are in a school district like Kim's and Dazey's. The curriculum is written by the internal administrators and it's great! It probably is a year ahead like they say. And they have very thought out and established gifted programs. Unfortunately, in the K-3 years, it's not even close to being challenging enough for HG kids. I really don't know yet if the higher grades will be, we'll have to see. There's no flexibility for grade skippping and alternative approaches because they sincerely believe they have all the bases covered.

Yes, you can advocate for changes and I have here and have been relatively successful. But in a district that has really established and succesful gifted programming, it's really difficult and has been somewhat draining. And it comes at a personal cost as there are parents who think you are a real a$$.

Peace,
Neato

Hello Calizapher,

I am sorry my post bothered you. I wished schools like the one my dd attends would be available for every child, gifted or not. It is a great school, and yes it is an expensive school. Had my dd been a ND child I wouln't have even considered a private school. However, a good percentage of the families there receive some financial aid. The Davidson institute also provides financial help for tuition for schools like this one.

It is true that some of the families there are very wealthy, but not all. For a good portion of us it is a sacrifice of both time and money.

We also have the long drive. We have to drive close to an hour each way every day to get there (by the way, about 80% of the children attending this school have a long commute).

I been kidding Dottie that she could start a school like this where she is. This school started with nine students in the school's founders home. One of the reasons I like to post the great things my dd's school offers is that I think perhaps someone can start something great like this somewhere else.

The incredible resources are great, the great teachers a big bonus. However, what makes this school truly extraordinary is the fact that HG children learn side by side. This is something any school could easily implement.

Anyway, i promised to be quiet for the rest of the school year, so I am zipping my lips.

I don't think anyone really expected you to keep that promise, Bianca. LOL!

As far as I'm concerned, talk on! Just let me grab a bib so I don't get my shirt all wet with drool...

Please, this is a somewhat crass oversimplification. I think you're great Bianca, I love your posts. Could you see how this could be insulting to some here, though?



Point taken. Please know that your child's exceptional school is still out of reach for some very deserving children. And we all make sacrifices for our children.



Now this is somewhat magical thinking and I don't think it's a very well thought out statement. This is insulting as it implies that all of us that do not have access to your situation could easily create such a wonderful environment for our children, we just must not be capable enough.
I'm personally offended as I've worked particularly hard to advocate for HG kids at school. It's not as easy as you might think.

Peace,
Neato

I think the big problem is finding the HG+ kids to work side-by-side with. They're not all that common, and if there's only one in a whole school on average, then working side-by-side isn't possible for most schools.

Thanks Kriston,

I can actually keep my promise for at least today. My dd and I are playing hookie at school and attending the National Geographic Bioblitz, so we are off to count, observe and record sea birds and mammals for the rest of the day!

I'm sorry. the word "easy" just seemed to jump off the screen and punch me in the nose.

What I read was "easy for the school" to implement - I'm thinking there are a lot of things that would help HG kids that would be easy for the school to implement, but getting the school on board is the difficult part.

(have fun today Bianc - I wish there were one of those events near my state. maybe next year)

One of the things that I find most frustrating about raising kids (GT and non GT)is that feeling that no matter what decision you make, there are always comprimises, and no matter what you do another parent is likely to judge you. For example, natural childbirth? breastfeeding? co-sleeping? day care? and on and on.

This same pattern gets worse when you child has special needs of any kind. It gets to the point where most of us keep our mouths shut and don't share our highs and lows because we don't want to face the social consequences in our local communities.

I like this board because it seems like about the safest place around to share. When I have something to brag about I know I can come here. I do think "bragging" is OK here. And, I don't see anything wrong with being happy for someone who has found a school in which their children thrive (even if it isn't a school that we can or want to send our own child to)!

acs, those are my sentiments also.

Everyone remember -- a joy shared is a joy multiplied and enlarged, a sorrow shared is a sorrow made divided and made smaller.

I've enjoyed reading about all the different educational ideas here.

I am sorry. I obviously have no experience dealing with school boards. I don't mean to belittle everything all you are doing for your children. I am just clueless as to your struggles. Mine come in the way of a difficult XH. I am getting pretty competent there

As for my statements being "not well thought out" you are right. I tend to speak/write without giving it a lot of thought. Always been one of my biggest faults

And I do think the children on this board are very lucky in that they have caring parents that are doing all they can to meet their extraordinary needs.

I don't have issue with her bragging about her great school, I think I made that pretty clear.

And I'm not bagging on her either.

But here is the quote again:



The idea that any school could easily implement this may have some truth. The problem is dealing with all the administrative levels of policy. It is NOT easy to get established schools to do this. I wouldn't think it would be an EASY undertaking to create this school from scratch.

So my issue is not with Bianca's great school or her happiness with it, as mentioned, I think it's great.
My issue is with the assertion that it is easy to create this situation. Or that somehow if one was willing to drive a certain distance or sacrifice financially he/she too could provide this for their child.
My opinion is that sadly, it just isn't so.

It's unfortunate if both sides of this coin could not be supported here.

Thank you for comments Bianca, it truly means a lot to me. I am truly sorry if I sounded harsh to you. Perhaps the fact that I have worked so hard for so little is just sour grapes on my part. I am so happy for you and your daughter, I've posted that before, your situation is something to celebrate!

I'm not sure I feel our sorrows divide us. It's good to discuss what is NOT working for these kids. It's part of the problem solving process just as much as cheering and modeling what is working, IMHO.

A whole page of discussion came in in the time I composed my last message.

If I had seen this I would say, that this is also a great place to share our frustrations as well as our joys!

To keep this board safe, I think we do a lot of self-policing, making sure that people keep their posts kind, even when we disagree. This is often done very gently. When people feel really frustrated, angry, or threatened, they tend to be less gentle. Obviously, this thread has hit a nerve!