I have a meeting with the district this week because I found out DS will not get credit for online or summer institute courses. We didn't set out to take any courses for credit, but thought we'd ask in case he could graduate early. I asked for a meeting because I want to ask them how they can address my high ability kids, if not allowing online courses (from highly reputable univ/programs), because they cannot otherwise offer what they need. There are such limited electives, AP classes reserved for jrs/srs, math goes up to calculus, etc. and our community college offers very little else.

I have this vision that down the line, they'll allow 1/2 time enrollment, and let the boys do 1/2 online or dual enrollment, even for a freshman or sophomore. If a teacher is horrible, I'd have a choice of letting my son take the course elsewhere. I know I'm dreaming, but the actual high school is a nightmare for an HG kid. Are there alternatives I don't know about that I should be advocating for to accommodate HG needs?

Will a community college let them enroll in a class or two?

You should advocate that they make a list of approved programs that they will give credit for . I will PM you a link, if I find it :-) But aren't CTY courses generally given credit for? Is there an option of testing out of a class?

Well, where I was really going with this is that perhaps there are other options if the school won't allow part time status. In our state legislation allows for part time school but the wording is vague and could probably be challenged. BTW, the school didn't offer up this info, I found it myself and then they verified it and said they would work with us if it came to it. Admittedly, they would rather have the children in school the entire day.
At the high school level another alternative would be to have the child pass community college classes. At that point the community college would be more likely to accept the student even at a younger age. Then the student could fulfil requirements to be entranced into a more traditional college. At that point, withdrawl from high school after passing the GED would be appropriate as child is already on their way to college. There are obvious drawbacks, but, I would say choose your poison. If you let a kid sit in class for four years doing nothing because they have already mastered the material, then aren't you conditioning that child to be unproductive. To, spin their wheels, so to speak?
I don't know the severity of the situation....just an idea.......

Could you set up some kind of independent study contract? Credit by examination? (This is different from "testing out" of a class.)

Our district has an independent study charter school. It's not exactly homeschooling because you and the school create the plan of study and they approve the curriculum. But the student studies at home on their own schedule.

Argh. This is all so depressing. Intelligent kids are the future of this country and our school system actively squanders them.

I've been dealing with this idea elsewhere today and it's so frustrating that everyone is subject to a set of ridiculous ideas espoused by "educators." Someone seems to have had a bad idea some time ago and now everyone else at the schools just goes along with it!

I mean, who decided that the best thing for a kindergartner is to learn to identify letters, regardless of actual knowledge? And why do you have to be 16 to take an AP course? Arghhh!


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Cym: community colleges usually offer courses on discrete maths, linear algebra, and statistics. Some even have independent study options allowing a student to explore a topic in depth. Would these courses be useful?

Val

Great suggestions! Thank you! I will ask about these possibilities.

I feel like they're all trying to keep it secret (school counselors/administrators) because I've met with them SO many times and made no progress. Partly because of turnover.

incog, we have similar legislation and funding for dual enrollment classes/concurrent enrollment, but the district has decided to reserve it for jrs & srs. Driving down to the college, waiting there, and driving back, for one kids when you have 4 seems old-fashioned in this internet age. I know human instruction is valuable, but if you had a self-teaching personality kid, wouldn't you opt for internet? My other kids are not as much like that.

Quote from Val:

"Someone seems to have had a bad idea some time ago and now everyone else at the schools just goes along with it!

I mean, who decided that the best thing for a kindergartner is to learn to identify letters, regardless of actual knowledge? And why do you have to be 16 to take an AP course?"

I Know! Isn't it cruel? Control freaks! I will keep trying because this is only the beginning of High School drama for me (1 in & 3 more coming up).

Part of my beef may not be reasonable, even to you all...The quality of teachers varies. Last year DS was in Honors Eng. The teacher was not good, lots of people left class, even as late as last 9wks, transferring to regular english (no honors) because of teacher. I wish we had the freedom to opt out of a class offered if we didn't like the teacher for an online or community college offering and then the district could identify weak teachers and Make Changes. I know this is unrealistic because of teachers' unions, but the school won't approve an online class that they offer.

We all know that we suffered through some pretty quirky teachers in high school, so I wonder if my quest for DS to not waste time, not suffer through, is just part of the usual High School experience. Not every class is going to be valuable, interesting, engaging. Is it just having too high expectations?

Well, if it's high expectations....count me in. We actually have a very promising tech/college opening up quite locally (branch deal), and I have my sights on it for the future. BUT...the current deal is that dreaded "juniors/seniors", when of course DS will need it before then. I'm wearing my rose colored glasses at the moment, and assuming "common sense" will prevail, but I'm going to start tapping on some doors come fall just the same.

Cym, it seems sooooooooo obvious to me that the kid needs to just take their year end test, to "prove" he knows their material as well as the (more advanced, but forget that for the moment) online/summer classes, but again...there's that common sense approach. It's apparently not very popular.

Best wishes! I'm watching closely as you brave the waters we'll eventually have to dive in to. Don't be afraid to push for outside the box. Really...there are "rules" that work for most, but clearly our kids are exceptions, and we have to sometimes insist that they be treated as such. One thing I learned from a seminar this summer with Wes Beach is to not take the initial "no" at face value.

On the topic of teachers, I think it is important for teenagers to start taking charge of their learning regardless of the teacher. This is an important skill for college and grad. school. Maybe the teacher is lousy, but kids can learn to follow the rules and get the grade while doing their real learning. Of course, this advice does not apply to abusive situations and if most of the classes your child is taking are like this, it's time to look for a new learning environment.

Unrealistic as things are now, maybe. But this doesn't make it right. How many people don't have to be assessed at work? I don't know of many groups other than teachers that escape performance assessment.

Have you asked them (perhaps in writing) WHY the online classes don't qualify? Sometimes you can get what you want this way if they can't supply a bona fide reason. This worked for me recently when I asked why my son hadn't passed a small swim test that he'd passed the previous 20 times he'd taken it. I kept asking, very politely, if the tester could tell me exactly what went wrong so I could help him improve. She couldn't provide an answer after I asked 4 times (kept giving a noncommittal answer) and let him take the test again and he passed.

Val

Cathy--I love this! I really need to save this to include in lecture to DS. Adolescence and hormones are no excuse! In truth, that's what I did when I had some poor teachers back in the dark ages.

Dottie,

About testing out--yes, I think that's the case for some courses (already 2 down (English 9 and Alg2 would have been good ones to test out). They may develop a test for Alg 2 testing out (not as simple as it sounds).

[quote=ValHave you asked them (perhaps in writing) WHY the online classes don't qualify? Sometimes you can get what you want this way if they can't supply a bona fide reason.
[/quote]

Yes, I intend to ask whether there's a list of approved providers of online and community college courses and why they won't give credit for the summer institutes with 115 seat hours of classroom instruction (certainly surpassing most college courses) from Duke Univ or Johns Hopkins. The counselor said that since they wouldn't transfer as honors or AP level classes, the credits would dilute his GPA, which people who are interested in valedictorian status would be concerned with. I am not sure if DS cares about this, so I'll have to query him when he gets back. Anyway, the principal took the easy road and said he didn't know anything but I should talk to superintendent so I will keep asking nicely until they give me a satisfactory answer.

It's not that essential for DS13, but it's something I need to investigate and establish for the next 3, who will really need some accommodations or something else.

Does anyone ever feel sly leverage when dealing with public schools because we have kids that can help their NCLB numbers? Or is that just silly?

My best leverage came after learning that "non-routine" legal fees cost the district $175/hour. Don't mess with me baby!

NCLB doesn't help me much for other than DD11, who is an official special education student virtually guaranteed to get at least "proficient". And given that she's one of only about 40-50 in her grade, her score counts as about 2% points in that subgroup! Other than that, their numbers are meaningless unless it's really close (maybe those last few years, if the thing doesn't blow up before then!) If only we were dirt poor....

Wanted to respond to this but I need Dottie ( I mean Cathy) to explain this sentence please, in the context of dealing with a bad teacher. I am lost

So am I....I don't remember saying that at all!

(Edited to say "Ask Cathy", )

I am not an educator so I do not know for sure, but from what I understad NCLB actually does a disservice as far as G/T go.

Our school post as % of kids who are at a proficient level, above proficient or below proficient. So having a kid that scores 100% or close to gives them the credit for only that one kid.
Iowa test are different, as they look at the whole class as a group, so a high scoring kid brings a percentage up.

WTF



Val, I feel ya sister! I blame the elected representatives that write the legislation. But it's kind of a catch 22. Today, being a politician is a thankless job. Who, but an idiot, would dare pursue it.



Cathy, younger kids too. These are the types of skills I see my children benefitting from and the reasons I haven't yanked em yet.



Yes, definately, when stonewalled it is appropriate to allude to litigation. Most people are self-serving and wouldn't want to justify their decision making in a court of law. I know I would give what you wanted if you put something in writing and sent it to me certified mail. It's a good thing you don't have my address. Who knows what you could squeeze out of me.

I expect they like the higher scores but aren't willing to go out of their way for single kids. And of course, if they accelerate them via grade skipping, they may perceive a risk of lower scores on the test at the higher grade level.

My kids go to a private school, but we looked into public schools last October when the private school wasn't working. The principals I contacted weren't interested in a grade skip (one said "Forget it" without even meeting my son). They gave me the "in-class differentiation" line and one told me they might be able to accomodate a one-year acceleration but "if you're talking about algebra in 2nd grade, forget it" (and my son started doing algebra in February of 2nd grade).

We found a new private school that groups by ability. I'll report on it as the year goes by.

Val

Sorry Dottie, I quess I was mesmerized by your green avatar
Have edited the last post. Waiting for Cathy to respond.

Where's the rebel base???? Certified letter on its way.

Val

Oh I missed that jewel....count me in too! (*thinking up demands*)

I think we have all BTDT
I wonder sometimes why this attitude is so common, almost the only one you are going to encounter, at least initially. I wonder how many people request changes based on the fact that their kid is "so smart" versus number of parents with kids who have real numbers behind them. Any guesses?

Dude.......power in numbers........................

Now, that was an ironic joke.
Yet, nothing but crickets.
I will not quit my day job.....................yet.

I think we were all just eating dinner, 'Neato. It always gets quiet every evening around that time.

It's not your jokes...it's your timing!

Har har har! Get it?

Oh, I crack myself up. Maybe that's what you need to do--laugh at your own jokes. It works for me!

I took an algebra break with DS...

And as for those crickets, if you lived in the country, you'd know they can be QUITE the audience!

Not as bad as the frogs though!

BUD.....WEIS....ER

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Love that!

Now THAT'S comedy.

That's it, 'Neato! I think you've found the problem with your humor. You're going for witty, esoteric banter. We laugh at beer commercials.

See where you're going wrong?

Ania, I am imagining a situation I encountered in high school where a teacher was just punching the clock and not interested in really teaching anyone. I think that somehow kids need to switch from external motivation (pleasing a teacher for instance) to self-motivation. Even though the teacher is giving me pointless busy work and useless comments (if any!) on graded work, I should still play the game, turn in the stuff, but extend my own learning just because I want to learn something. I think at some point, we want our kids to start differentiating the curriculum for themselves.

How do you extend your own learning? In class or outside of school?

When I was a kid, I would extend my school learning when something caught my imagination. For example, I found an old and wonderfully illustrated (Gustav Dore) edition of The Divine Comedy at a fair for a quarter, and read Inferno on my own over the summer. What a wonderful book!

With my kids, the process seems to happen the same way. Just now, literally, we were all watching a video about a hypothesis for the origin of the moon.

We got on the topic in the car for some reason, and three kids aged 3-8 stood transfixed watching the video again and again.

I try to expose my kids to different ideas to make them aware of what's out there. I also buy tons of books, especially DK-Reader type books, which give good illustrated overviews of a topic.

Val

Ania, I am thinking of high school classes that are less than an hour long. Most of the learning takes place outside class. If the teacher is really apathetic, one can often study topics of one's choice during class...