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"Second, redshirting is an arms race. Horowitz observed, "Some people think redshirting will give their kids an academic edge." Conversely, as redshirting becomes more popular, parents can be concerned that if they don't redshirt their children, their offspring will be out-competed for the rest of their school careers by older classmates who did redshirt."



http://www.isteve.com/2002_Redshirting-A_Kindergarten_Arms_Race.htm

No opninion implied, just found this interesting in light of how hard some of us work to do the opposite!

I've read about this in many places and teachers have commented about this. A parent will complain little Johnny is bored and when teacher looks at Johnny's birthdate, he should be in 1st and not K. I spoke with a mom, whom from what she said, he was at the very least high avg if not brighter. Well, she kept him out of K b/c of his short stature. Another kid was already reading and doing simple math, parent planned to hold the kid back b/c of a November birthday (cutoff is Dec) not considering whether emotionally, psychologically, and academically the child was ready.

Redshirting gave us trouble. We thought about early K for DS7, but he's already one of the youngest for his grade (May birthday) and people around here redshirt boys like mad. Early admission would have put him almost 2 years younger than many of the other boys in his class. So we didn't try.

I don't know if it would have helped us to avoid the trouble we had when he finally hit 1st grade, but I think it would have been nice to feel like we had the option.

No, it wouldn't have helped. Feeling better?

Much! :p

Red-shirting is very, very common in our small competitive community. When we moved in to our house, the first conversation that we had with our next-door neighbor (whose twin sons have nearly the same birthday as our DS) was if we were planning to red-shirt our son or not. He was only one year old at the time!!

I was also at the pool one day and struck up a conversation with a dad there. He was going on and on about how he was fighting with the school about his third grade son. Apparently the boy was "ranked" #3 in his class, and the father was miffed about it. (I have never heard of our schools "ranking" anyone!) He was fighting with the school to have his kid repeat third grade so that he could be #1 next year!! The school was smart enough to refuse. The boy was very bright and was making excellent progress. Can you imagine such a parent?

On the other hand, you would think that a community which emphasizes competitive academics would be better about providing services for advanced kids. But no! All the parents want is the "label" that their son or daughter is "gifted". It is nothing more than a sport's trophy to them. (hence the red-shirting analogy)

Wow, e-beth, that's really unfortunate(understatement.).

I've heard that they rank the kids in elementary school here, too, but I don't know if it's factual.

The person who told me that is highly suspect!

I think this is a hard situation. Just knowing the all day kindergarten my son went through (and our district only has all day kindergarten), it is almost 2 years in a row of first grade and I can see why some parents make that choice when faced with this type of kindergarten. IMHO, kids are shamed if they are unable to focus all day which isn't a great situation. Especially for sensitive kids.

So my son has an October birthday (we have sept 1 cutoff). He is old for grade. I never considered sending him early. I didn't know he was very GT for one. But even now, I couldn't have imagined him being ok in the class he was in a year earlier and doing well behaviorally. Of course now we're going to home school rather than go onto a 2nd grade. And it would have been better to stop after K! A grade skip now would be too little too late. No matter what, he's not a great fit for a standard elementary school environment.

I will say there is a boy in his grade that has an APRIL birthday and he is a 2nd child. He acts out all the time and he is reading a couple grade levels ahead. And he's big. This guy should have definitely not been held back. I know another boy with a July birthday in my DS's class who has highly intelligent (both teach at the college level) and involved parents struggling to read, so for him it was the right choice.

I just wish our public kindergartens weren't so focused on NCLB and achievement, or maybe divided kindergartens out based on age, or temperament, or something.

ebeth, we're in much the same type of community. For the most part, though, parents red-shirt kids around here for sports - chance to make the varsity soccer team in high school and get that college scholarship. So crazy! And then the kids specialize in their sport so early that there's a fair chance they suffer a career-ending injury as a teen, or just plain old burnout. In a way, it's good that college admissions have gotten so out of hand - I realize that the world has changed, we have little control, and I'd much rather DS be happy. I don't feel the pressure other parents feel around here with an 8 year old worrying about getting into college.

Wow! That is shocking. I'm not sure which is worse - the insane dad or the school ranking 3rd graders? The funny thing is if he would have been allowed to repeat the poor kid probably would have started underachieving. He clearly "gets" all the material.

Yes, I think sports is the primary reason for redshirting in our area, too. Well, maybe that and so that the boys are more mature and better able to sit still.

I'd prefer the schools just let the kids move around more, but whatever...

I think there is a lot of academic red-shirting around here. Not so much to make sure the child is the top of the list, but for fear the child will end up on the bottom of the list.

Yes, in my perfect school, all kids would be skill tested in k the first day and placed in the appropriate grade for the appropriate subject.

Ideally all kids would be tested at the beginning of the year and after winter break and re-placed if necessary.

I was told when I was pregnant with Pud, due in August, that if it were a boy, I just HAD to hold him back on NOT on any condition put him in K at 5. I remember thinking, gosh, let's let the child be born before we start categorizing him/her.

However, I will say that with some boys with summer birthdays, I can see why parents red-shirt them. Some of these boys don't have the maturity or emotional readiness to sit through full-day K at barely 5. I'm sure that also applies to girls, but I've known more boys that way than girls. A good option for us was a part-time, church K. (Granted, Pud was doing 2nd grade work at the time but he loved it and the teachers loved him, so it was a good fit, socially). Not quite half the kids went on to first and the rest repeated K in public school for many reasons.

I think it all depends on the child.

Oh and for the record, we have plenty of red shirting around here. Not always for good reasons. I don't know anyone personally who does it for sports, but I'm sure they're out there. Everyone I know whose done it, has done it for boy squirrelly issues.

I just had a conversation with a parent last week at my son's piano camp. She had a boy the same age as DS7 and seemed very excited and anxious about ivy league schools already. And DS blew her away with his ability. Her son is bright, but not as scary as DS7. Ugh - I don't need that kind of stress or pressure in my life! I'll cross those bridges as we approach them.

I personally think that the insane dad must have pushed and pushed the teacher to see if his kid was number one in the class. If the #3 actually came from the school, he must have had to drag it out of them. I don't think the school would have ranked them. Or maybe the dad was just estimating the #3 by pumping the other parents for report card info.

But red-shirting makes my life so much harder when my DS has accelerated a year. He was seven all of last year in third grade... most of the other boys in the class were turning 10.

One of the other moms looked at me and said, "You think that the (red-shirting) parents would stop and think for a moment. Who wants their kid driving during freshman year?" I agree. Most boys in 9th grade do not have the emotional/maturity development to be driving a car!

I can understand the squirmy, summer-birthday, boy-thing. That sentence describes my DS to a tee. We were fortunate to only have half-day K, or we would have been in trouble. There was no way he could sit still for full-day K. (He had enough trouble with half-day K!!)

But isn't that just an indication that the school structure is a problem? What are you supposed to do with squirmy little 5 year old boys who are ready for 2nd grade material?? Holding them back can't be the best solution?

Well, maybe they do if they're 18 in 9th grade! Ugh.

Oh, and squirt, I was referring to my squirmy little 5 year old... not your! I don't want to imply anything about your DS!!

My dd8 is an April birthday. Our cutoff is December, so she ended up being one of the older students in her class. Her experience in 1st grade could not have been better (she did not attend K). She was mature, confident and happy. Some of the kids on the younger side struggled a bit. I think your experience at school in your earlier years shapes the rest of your school years.

She was grade skipped for next year, so she will now be one of the younger kids in her class. I guess I will just have to wait and see how this works out.

Yup. This was my point, too. If boys can't do what's required for school, then maybe the problem is with school!

5- and 6yo kids can learn stuff without sitting all day. So do that!

Too true! DH and I laugh about kids in elementary needing to shave!

I agree Bianca. Over half of the summer birthday kids that started with DS in K were held back a year and repeated K. (The next-door neighbors twins included) So it does depend on the particular kid. I just think the school should be the one to decide these things, based on the particular child, and not the parent who is trying to relive the glory days of their youth through their child.

That's exactly my fear.

One of the mom's around here who is holding back her very bright DD gave reasons as "she's a little too bossy" and mom also didn't want to have DD be just one grade behind DS. I don't understand the one grade apart argument. What's that all about? I could see a problem if they were in the same grade, but huh?

My first grade teacher always said a child can have one bad year in elementary; bad teacher, behaviourial problems, etc.; but it better not be first grade because that sets the tone for the rest of the school years. My first grade teacher is now 97, and kindergarten was not in place at the school I started. That thought has been around a long time.

We're talking bad 3 yr. old preschool, not great 4 yr. old preschool, bad K, bad 1st, bad 2nd. Hopefully, that thought has been replaced by more current thinking...

Here's hoping a great 3rd grade HSing will help create some resiliency and the trend will be reversed.

I can see both sides of it with DS.... On the one hand it would have been completely ridiculous on the academic side to put him in K or 1 at the "appropriate" time, and nevermind a year later (birthday just making the cutoff). But on the other hand, I don't think he would have enjoyed K or 1 early or on time either. It's not that he's immature, really, but definitely introverted and likes his personal space. Lots of noise and groups of kids and pushing and shoving isn't really his cup of tea.... and the big joke around here when he would have gone to K was that he would have lasted about 2 hours before yelling "OKAY everyone just take two BIG steps that way!"

Up until maybe last year (barely 8) he did best with other kids in small groups and in short periods of time (1-3 hours). And he did best in especially well-controlled situations -- orderly, predictable, quiet, etc. Add to it that until last year his abilities were WAAAAAAY variable (great in math, not so great in writing, etc.) -- I can kind of see in him the "leveling out in third grade" effect, but not in comparison to other kids, just in his own stride. He is much more "level" himself now (just not very "third grade" LOL). And I think he'd be fine in school now.

So I guess what I'm saying is I would hate to have had to make a choice at 5. There wasn't really a good one for him in either direction, and even if we found something that worked then, I don't think it would be the same something that would work now. What I wish is that the whole system were more flexible, especially in the early years, and that we didn't have to pick a single grade or class that fit for everything... which for us just comes back to homeschooling.

I have a general problem with the length of the school day in the US. It's ridiculous that kids in K and elementary grades are expected to be at school for almost as long as high school kids. This makes no sense to me at all.

There is lots of red-shirting around here as well. I saw some kids mature enormously during the year they were kept back, but I also saw others learn so much that they will be extremely bored when they get to K. I think the decision has to be done on individual basis. DS5 is one of the youngest kids in his grade, not that it would matter anymore now.

The story about the father and his "only" 3rd in the class son is unbelievable. Poor kid.

Sometimes I think that situations in which a child would really benefit from redshirting are few and far between. If the typical K class is supposedly taught to the middle 90% of the curve, there's only 5% on the bottom end, just like on the top, i.e., just a few kids. Then again, the issue is really not core IQ levels but rate of development. One tricky aspect, as we all know, is that GT kids tend to be asyncronous, just one of the many reasons a GT kid might not fit well in a typical K classroom. I agree that the issue may be more with the structure of the school environment than with the kid. I don't remember anyone talking about redshirting when we were kids - it was around, as I'll discuss below, but the kids who were a different age for grade were few and far between.

My mother recently told me they had considered redshirting my brother, who was short with an Oct. birthday. But they didn't - someone tested him and said it would be a crime to make him wait. He didn't achieve a more normal height until the end of high school, so waiting to start K wouldn't have helped him anyway. My mom's point was that although it was tough for him to be the shortest boy for so many years, he developed other personality traits in ways he might not have but for his small stature, and that these traits are important for his current career (kinda like everyone has their cross to bear, but with a positive spin).

Like my brother, I was often the shortest in my class, but now he's about 10" taller than me LOL. Obviously it's different to be short and female, but throughout my life I usually have preferred that people underestimate me. I have always felt that conferred an edge, in life in general (from meeting random guys in bars to negotiating with opposing counsel). I don't think there's anything wrong with being the youngest in a class in that regard, when the intellectual background is present.


With this type of situation, there's also the possibility of an LD scenario, and lack of reading ability in K, or prior to K, does not necessarily speak to intelligence (my DD7 is a case in point). I'd hate to have a smart kid held back due to an LD, and end up stuck that way, a grade back, for twelve years. I guess in that sense I see similarities between redshirting and grade retention - I vaguely recall that research shows retention not to be very effective because it usually doesn't address the core cause of problems. Sometimes another year of development might do the trick, but it's got to be hard to predict that ahead of time.

The other shame about redshirting is that school administration doesn't seem to bat an eye at these kids being different age for grade, and yet gives GT parents such a hard time about acceleration.

just my two cents

I should mention (duh) my DS5, who probably would do poorly in a traditional K class, has trouble with sound-letter association (speech delay doesn't help), and fine motor problems, is a visual-spatial learner with auditory-sequential weaknesses, in addition to being very introverted (has basically no buddies except for his twin brother. His twin brother has several buddies). Also, he's quite small for his age. On the surface he'd seem like a classic case for redshirting, if it weren't for the fact that he's a grade level and a half, or more, ahead in math.

We have, temporarily at least, solved the problem that a traditional school structure wouldn't work for him - he's in a montessori school with a young upstart teacher who gets him and who is very flexible and open to new ideas, and he's doing great. (He has the same teacher/classroom for K as he had for preschool - 3 grade levels in each class. But the K is full day, whereas the preschool was half-day) He starts K in 11 days...

Good luck snowgirl, hope k works out well.

I like the fact that you used a demure stature to your advantage in the courtroom, what a shark!

I've done the same sort of thing, snowgirl. Never underestimate the power of a petite, smart woman! Dynamite comes in small packages. <evil grin>

I've even been known to play dumb in order to lure people into a Socratic dialogue. Makes 'em nuts when they realize they've been had, sunk by their own logic (or lack thereof)!

WOOHOO! LMAO! I love it..........said the really tall woman!

Well, it can certainly come in tall packages, too!

People just tend to underestimate those less frequently...

I'm definately hard to miss. I often get this remark and often from people I hardly know:

"I wouldn't want to piss you off."

I need some scam to appear more non-assuming.

Maybe I'll pretend I don't speak or understand English.

Nah, we'll just call you "the Intimidator."

And who are these people who say such rude things to you without even knowing you? Harumph!

I'll actually take it as a compliment! I enjoy being thought of as someone not to be trifled with. It saves me a lot of time.

I have a very gifted friend who used to play dumb when she met guys (many years later, she's married to an intellectual equal. She's kinda high maintenance in that way so it's a good thing lol).

Another way to look at the redshirting issue: what man (since it's typically boys) would want to be in the same position in their career as they are now but be a year older than they are now?? (maybe even worse for a woman?) I don't know about everyone else, but I'm old enough already

I never played dumb with guys. If they wanted dumb, they didn't want me. It would have been a waste of time. I'm glad your friend found an equal, snowgirl!

I only played dumb someone with who wouldn't listen to reason, in order to snare him/her in my web of logic. :p

Here in the uk children start reception in the september when they are four. My ds is five at the beginning of september and will be the eldest child in his class.

Some of the children in his class have only just turned four. It seems that children here start school a year earlier. I have never heard of red shirting. Do you have the same opportunity to get a child in early?

I tried to get my son in early for last year, but to no avail. It is virtually unheard of.

Good question! No, generally speaking you don't have the same opportunity to get them in early. Usually that's a terrible slog.

No, here in the US we are only allowed to hold our children back, not allow them to advance forward!

Redshirting is very popular at our school. At age 5, in Kindergarten, my son with a May birthday was the second youngest in the class with boys who were much bigger and older. Some of the older boys were bullies. My son's most vivid memory of Kindergarten is when two of these older, bigger boys challenged him to a fight on the playground. He said that luckily he was wearing a watch and knew that the bell was about to ring so instead of looking for the teacher, he put his fists up like he was ready to fight, but didn't have to defend himself because the bell did ring in time for him to avoid a fight. The attitude here is that boys will be boys and teachers seem to ignore some of the problems. I didn't think it was fair that so many boys were held back a year and that my son, in addition to an inappropriate education had to worry about dealing with these older boys on the playground.

It isn't an academic edge that most of the people here hold their kids back for--it is sports. The older, bigger boys are better at football against the schools who do not redshirt.

This is where the "logic" of the edumacators breaks down:

Q: Little Johnny, age 5, can read at a 3rd grade level and do multiplication problems with re-numbering. Could we maybe let him skip K and go to 1st grade? Here is the evidence showing he can do this stuff.

A: IMPOSSIBLE! His social development will be negatively impacted by the lack of age-peer interactions!!

AND

Q: Little Jimmy, age 5, will attend K when he's 6 so he can still play HS football when he's 19. Is that okay?

A: Of course!

Okay, so this post is rather, emm, biting, but seriously...what is the official reason for not worrying about age-peer interactions when a 6-year-old is thrown in with a bunch of younger kids??


Val

That's the primary reason. I've seen it done.

The flip side of it is that most of these redshirted "football stars" end up mentally stunted when they graduate. Most don't have any unusual athletic talent anyway.

Today I came across an interesting article against redshirting posted on another board, http://naecs.crc.uiuc.edu/position/trends2000.html , "A position statement developed by National Association of Early Childhood Specialists in State Departments of Education". There a few nuggets here and there that some of you may be interested in.