I hope it is not bad style to start another new thread so soon, but I wanted to ask about parents' experience with various school approaches to discipline - what board members have been impressed with and what they've been disenchanted with; what works fairly, what is counterproductive.

I've witnessed two general techniques in my short-lived experience with schools: (1) prompt isolation, where the child is removed from the playground/classroom after two infractions of the rules (e.g., name-calling; this was in nursery school). This was a disaster for DS.

(2) His current school keeps a chart at the front of the classroom with colored bits of paper for each pupil. The initial color is green; after one infraction, the pupil is made (before the class) to change his/her color to yellow for the day; two infractions leads to orange and five minutes off recess; three to red and ten minutes off recess; blue means a visit to the principle and a note home. Perfect children who stay on green all week get some kind of sticker.

What do other schools do, and what approaches are most effective while still demonstrating respect for the child?

New threads are good. If you need one, start one!

Our K teacher used a similar system to the second one you mentioned, though I don't think she took recess time away for bad behavior. At least DS7 never told me about kids losing recess.

The 1st grade teacher seemed to follow strategy one that you mentioned, which was disastrous for us as well. Then, in a wrongheaded effort to be more positive, I think, she started passing out pennies for good behavior that the kids could use to "buy" junk food from her. But many kids in the class were losing entire recesses, and parents were not happy! One mom threatened to pull her child out if he missed another recess. "Find another way," she said, "he needs time to play outside!"

I always thought making kids walk/run laps would be a good, productive form of discipline, especially for the antsy ones who can't sit still. Making kids sit all day and then taking away their time to move around just makes NO sense to me.

FWIW...

My (not all that wide) experience w/ discipline systems and the lack thereof leads me to think that two things are desirable: 1) a system actually exists, has been thought about, written down, and communicated to everyone (including students and parents), and 2) people stick to the system.

Oh, and that expectations are communicated too...

One of the schools my DD attended had a system sort of similar to the second one fitzi described, though with different actions. There were five steps, going from verbal reminder up to parent-teacher discussion prior to next school day. I think the most important feature of the system was that student & teacher (and later parents) were supposed to come up with a plan to address behavior at the fourth step. Anyway, her 2nd grade teacher had the kids keep track of what step they were on with a set of four colors of unifix cubes on their desks. DD only ever lost the first one (verbal reminder), and would have been very embarrassed to get to the next step (time-out in the classroom - disengage from group, supposed to calm down and reflect). Third step was time out in a different classroom (buddy teacher).

DD didn't mind this system too much, though I know of other kids who feared it. I was worried about it at the start but turned out to be just fine for us. Definitely better than lack of a system, lack of behavior expectations, and lack of enforcement.

I've seen both methods used. My only opinion is that if the system being used is causing distress, I would feel justified talking to the teacher. These kids tend to be truly humiliated in these kinds of situations.

I'd say for my girls there is an element of fear involved. But both are very quick to figure out the "formula" for NOT pulling a card or whatever is used to measure inappropriate behavior.

We have system wide discipline. Each school sets it's rules and each day you are judged according to your meeting the rules. If you break a rule, you get a note home on your calendar. If you follow the rules, you get a sticker on your calendar that day. Parents initial the calendars daily. If you go beyond just breaking a rule, you have to go to the counselor and if that happens too much, you get your own behavior program formulated with the counselor, teacher, and parents. And there are weekly awards for the kids that did something exceptional, and monthly events for the kids that met certain behavior standards.
The nice part about all this is that the kids know what to expect, and the teachers have an accepted system in place to follow (and they are supported by the counselor to do so).
There is a lot of support and encouragement for kids to behave well, and most do.

At Big Man's school last year (K in a GT school) they had a system that seemed to work really well - it sound similar to your second system - "best" was a rainbow card, and then subsequent infractions moved colors down to green, yellow, organge and red. To be frank, i don't remember exactly what happened at the lower levels, but i only recall there being one red (which made a big impact on big man) with one of his classmates - after a particularly bad tantrum i believe, when he was sent to the head-of-school's office.

On the positive side, at the end of each day each child colored a piece of paper with whatever color of card they had, at the end of the week if they had all rainbows or rainbow and no more than 1 (or 2?) greens they got a trip to the treasure box (huge deal for Big Man!) - they also bring it home as a sort of "report card" which Big Man was always proud to display . In addition, during each day they got stickers for particularly good behaviour (listening well, helping, etc.) on a "sticker holder" (usually some 5x5 sized piece of paper- in the shape of a fish tank, gum ball machine, etc.). At the end of the month, the top two with the most stickers got an extra something from the treasure box.

What i really liked about this was the emphasis on the positive. I also heard (and found) that the kids made a big deal of keeping their rainbow cards and encouraged eachother if one of them got "demoted" at any point. They WANTED their friends to be in green / rainbow territory, and would help eachother out to get back on the "right track".

I think in orange/red territory there was some recess loss, but again, i, thankfully, had no personal experience with that, and it was my understanding that it didn't happen too much, in part b/c of the positive environment in the class and how they helped eachother.

I know that changes somewhat in 1st grade + (less trips to the treasure box, for one), but since we will have a new teacher we don't know how it will all play out.

Wow, i write long posts... sorry about that!

Wow--all these systems sound so complicated compared to the system at my kids' school: any infraction (forgotten homework, talking out of turn, misbehavior on the playground, etc.) is punished by THE RED X. Kids who get a "red x" must literally stand on a red x painted at the edge of the playground during recess. The kids on the x's are supervised by a teacher. They are not allowed to talk while on the x. They are allowed to stand, sit, drink water, eat their snack, and be excused to use the bathroom.

Three red x's = A BEHAVIOR TICKET. The student is sent to the vice principal who gives them a talking to and writes out the ticket. The behavior ticket must be brought home, signed by the parents, and returned to the vice principal.

From my observations, some of the teachers overuse the red x to the point that some kids have so many that they never get recess. Of course, at that point, it doesn't matter to those kids at all if they receive another red x. Overall, the system works as a deterent to kids who are generally well behaved. It does nothing to solve real behavior problems, though.

My son's school uses the same "card system" with the colors and levels for the number of times that rules are broken. This year his 3rd grade teacher has a five card system (versus the 4 cards in 2nd grade) so he figured out on the very first day that this year he gets one more "warning" or chance to break the rules before the biggest punishment (trip to the principal's office and loss of all recess for the next day) gets handed out. This system is used for breaking classroom rules like talking, running in the halls, not turning homework in, etc.

I have a hard time with schools taking away recess, too, Kriston. That's both as mommy and OT, who knows that the need to move is huge for kids 10 and under. It's just ridiculous to take away recess and force stillness in a child when that often then creates more unrest and the child acts out further.

I personally liked the system at the Catholic grade school my older kids attended back in the 80s/90s. There was detention, plain and simple, where you did some work for the teacher - not just sit and be still. The discipline was based on the infraction. I remember two of my sons friends who did some vandalism and broke a window at the school. They received detention for a week after school - with the janitor. They cleaned the school and helped fix the window. Made perfect sense. More sense than sitting still in the principal's office.

I also think that discipline needs to fit the child. My child really isn't bothered too much by bringing home his chart without a stamp for good behavior that day. He says stuff like "well, I was only on yellow, that's only one time that I was not behaving." He'd be much more responsive to praise for the times he *doesn't* misbehave and/or to taking away something more valuable in his eyes than recess (ie: 5 minutes of free choice time or computer time). Unfortunately, the classroom doesn't really lend itself to individualized discipline any more than individualized education! I only see individualized behavior plans for kids who have IEPs in place around us. And then most of the time the people creating the plan don't really get it right anyway (much like the education thing, unfortunately).

I did forget to mention that the school uses TONS of positive reinforcements for good behavior.

Yeah, I was rushing and forgot to mention positive reinforcements too. Those depended on the teacher, and were more concrete in first, then tended toward class parties for extended good behavior later on.

Also, at a different school one teacher/grade used a weekly report to the parents. Just form letters, of three varieties. Every parent got one, every week, which one depended on the behavior for the week. I only recall seeing one of the varieties though.

I really don't like the idea of taking away recess. Also, this is probably better put on a different thread, but I think this summary of research on activity level & education is relevant. Esp the section on page three about activity breaks and classroom behavior.

I would consider that public humiliation, not punishment (especially for forgotten homework!?!). I would be in the principal's office in a heartbeat if someone did that to my child.

We are new to the colors-and-consequences approach, and I agree that it is odd (and counterproductive) to cut back recess as a 'consequence' - after all, they only get 20 minutes a day to start with. What bothers me more is the kind of ritual humiliation entailed. The child must go to the front of the class and change his own color in front of everyone, and is, in effect, pilloried for the remainder of the day. DS found this upsetting (as would I), and we had a family meeting to tell him that our love for him was unaffected by the color of the day, and that as long as he tried to get along at school, we would help him sort out issues as they arose. I told him yellow was pretty good, actually - only one mistake!

Digressing a bit, Yesterday, we switched his backpack and forgot to give him his color chart (which the school, by the way, has never discussed with us). After school the teacher called to tell me he'd gone to yellow for hiding a piece of clay behind his back when she'd asked him for it (here, I fancy, you should imagine the theme from the exorcist playing in the background). Then, at the end of the day, he also called a girl a 'blockhead' (a la Lucy in Charlie Brown). We chatted and she said one favorable thing about him, but then concluded "I cannot tolerate disrespect towards me or the other children." I was taken aback by this comment and tone, and have since been trying to understand her severity.

We've been talking with a private school that takes a different approach. They insist on a consequence for every real rule infraction, but they make it short and swift (e.g., a short time-out), and the offender is asked to do something next day to make amends if there is a 'victim,' like write a note, draw a picture, or perform some kindness. Once the consequence has been administered, tho, it's subject over, let's move on to something else. I've thought about this approach for a day now, and I think it makes a lot of sense.

Kcab - thank you very much for that link. I know a number of people who will appreciate that article!

Our 1st grade teacher took away recess. And I never knew what was going on at school. I only got what I could drag out of DS. There was no school wide consistency. I would have loved a written explanation on how discipline in the classroom would work and a weekly behavioral report. Even a sentence would have been good.

Our kindergarten teacher had a green, yellow, red warning system. He was so great, it seemed he hardly needed a really strong disciplinary system. The kids adored him.

I like what Stuart Little has to say on the subject, when he agrees to teach a class as a substitute for a sick teacher:

"I'll make the material interesting, and the discipline will take care of itself."

This is purely out of curiosity. How do all of you handle it when your child gets in trouble at school? What do you say/do once they get home?

That Stuart Little is one smart cookie! Seriously, if teachers are banging their heads on the same issues day after day something needs to change. Maybe it's the disciplinary system or the teaching style. Maybe there is an issue with a particular child or children. A child who gets disciplined constantly is not going to feel very good about themselves, which only feeds the problem.

For a long time, DS would not tell us anything about his school life. We also often took the teacher's side automatically when issues arose. In retrospect, I'd say we were pretty out to lunch, parentally. Now we assure him of our love for him whatever happens, and then talk things through. If we feel he's erred, we try to explain why, how, and may even do a play acting game with him on the topic. If we're not sure, we take it up with the teacher. If we feel the teacher has erred, we seek a tactful way to talk the matter through with her.

BTW, DS now is willing to talk to us about his school days, which we feel suggests we are getting our act together with him.

Fitzi,

We had a similar problem with the "stop light" discipline in first grade. My DS (now 8) would give Mr. Wiggly a run for his money (or name) at that age. Add to that a dash of highly asynchronous development, rampant boredom, and complete social cluelessness and we did not have an overly fun year for first grade.

All kids started out the day on green. The first warning sent them to yellow, and, yes, there was the public humiliation of having to go up in class and change your card. The next warning sent you to red. They did not take away recess time in first grade. Sometimes there were phone calls home if you had too many reds in one week. And the teacher did provide some positive praise by rewarding the entire class if everyone stayed on green. I believe that she made some form of chain with giant paper clips, with each day that all of the kids stayed on green earning one clip. When the chain reached from the ceiling to the floor, the class got to have some form of special treat... a movie day, party or special treats.

The problem that I had with it was that the other kids in the class very quickly decided that my DS, who was viewed as outside of the norm anyway, was someone that they could pick on and "tattle" for an imaginary crime to send him to yellow or red. Now, I don't believe that my kid was a perfect saint and that every card change was another kid's fault. But there were several girls in the class who delighted in getting my son to change his card. I volunteered quite regularly in the classroom and observed it happening. By the end of the year, they were telling the teacher that he was saying swear words in class when he didn't know any swear words. So the policy has some definite holes in it that a non-observant teacher can fall for. And this particular teacher took any accusation ("Teacher, Little Johnny pushed me!") as absolute gospel. She did not have to witness it in order to send a kid up in front of the class for public humiliation. DS lost all respect and gave up on the system after having to change his card for something that he did not do.



Oh my, fitzi!!! I would ask why a simple infraction like that is disrespectful to herself or the other children? I would counter that this is a kid testing boundaries, and now he knows that this was inappropriate. Kids learn by making mistakes like that. <one of Kriston's famous shrugs needed here! > And it is the teacher's duty to gently teach boundaries and discipline, as well as reading and math. (without getting their knickers is a knot!) Now if it happens repeatedly, then I would say that, yes, it would be an issue of disrespect. But not on a single occurrence. And I would add that most kids are inherently respectful until the situation (or teacher) causes them to lose that respect. And for most gifted kids, a lack of truth, justice, or fairness in a system is the fastest way for them to lose respect.

Oh, sing it out, people! Sing it loud!!!

We might still be in the school system if DS7's 1st grade teacher had heard you...

It does seem a bit draconian, but I think the other systems described here pretty much amount to public humiliation, too. I'm not really defending this system, though. It is not very effective. Since the kids get red x's routinely, they don't seem to perceive it as a big deal. It doesn't seem to be any more damaging than timeout, or sitting with your head down during recess or other variations on that theme.

I've given it some thought, and I think that schools' hands are really tied when it comes to discipline. The only privilege they really have to take away is recess, and they have to apply the same consequences to everyone or they will be seen as unfair.

I am not too excited about really against rewards like class parties and buying candies from the teacher for behavior that should be the expected standard. I agree that taking away recess from wiggly kids who need to run off energy doesn't make much sense, but I'm not sure what else the school can take away.

If anybody has an idea for a fair, workable, effective, non-humiliating discipline system, I'd love to hear it! I'm not thrilled about the red x system myself but I've just sort of accepted it since I'm not sure what else can be done.

Why assume that giving a bribe or taking away a "privilege" like recess--which I would argue shouldn't be a privilege, but a necessity--is the only option?

Add more work. NOT academics, of course, though I must admit a certain personal fondness for the idea of requiring an essay on justice or something like that to get the point across, even though I can see the drawbacks to using schoolwork as punishment... No, I mean physical labor like cleaning or physical exertion like walking.

"Making the punishment fit the crime" is also a good idea: treat a fellow student badly, and you must cede your place in line to the child or some other such sacrifice. They used to require kids to clap erasers as a form of punishment, and I think requiring some sort of positive service to the school along those lines to counteract the negative service the child has done makes sense to kids. There's a sort of justice in it that appeals to kids.

Or be creative: if a misbehaving child's favorite color is red, make him do his coloring page without a red crayon that day. Something like that would send a very effective message to my DS4, whose love of the color green knows no bounds!

As for bribes, there are some that aren't so bad. Whatever happened to promising extra recesses for well-behaved kids? It's free, it's easy, it's sugar-free, it's healthy, and it always worked on my classes when I was a kid. Or has NCLB made it so that There'sNoTimeInOurBusyBusyScheduleForThat?

*sigh*

And, of course, there's always Stuart Little's solution...

Those are just off the top of my head. If I were a teacher with a chronically misbehaving class, I'd spend more than the 2 minutes I just spent brainstorming/researching some creative solutions. (Though in my experience, people who are dedicated and creative enough to be willing to brainstorm/research other options usually don't NEED to because they're already being creative and interesting enough in the classroom to keep the kids' attention, and they don't HAVE chronic behavior problems! :p )

I don't think I have the skill to educate a teacher in her own trade and still earn her good will. We decided today that this environment will not promote the emotional growth we've seen DS recover over the past year. So we are moving immediately to a private school some distance away, which opens next week, where the director speaks with obvious relish about her 'bright but quirky kids.' This will be challenging to us financially and logistically, but we've decided we'd rather wrestle in these dimensions than with a staff who sees quirky as something intolerable.



Cathy:

Have a look at the last one I described; I think it makes sense.

Thanks again for the many thoughtful comments on this topic!

Kriston,

In general, I agree with the idea of natural consequences. That's pretty much how I do things at home. And I know that your examples of clapping erasers and not getting to use your favorite color are just examples. The little punks at our school would laugh at a consequence like that! If kids are routinely yelled at and whupped on the behind as a form of discipline at home, timeouts and changing colored cards at school are just not going to make an impression. This is a tough crowd...

It's really an intractable problem which takes so much time and energy away from actually learning anything.

I like the idea of service consequences. I don't think the school will go for it, though, because it would require too much teacher supervision and possible school liability. They only have resources to punish en masse.

Yup. If a school limits itself to en masse modes of discipline, then shaming and taking recess are all that's left, neither of which is actually effective.

You know, I think it's really the same problem as the GT issue in some ways: "I'm sorry. We can't do any sort of individualized discipline. That would be too hard/expensive/unfair/much work. Instead we'll do this other thing that doesn't work well at all, but that fits within our narrow definition of what discipline should look like and that we can adminster en masse."

Substitute "education" for discipline, and it starts to sound really familiar, doesn't it?

Ugh.

Oh, and in my experience, even with kids who are rough around the edges, if you give respect to them and demand respect from them and if the expectations for classroom behavior are clear and fair, then all you have to do is give them "the look" and they straighten up 9 times out of 10. (I worked with some inner-city teens a couple of summers while I was teaching, so I know whereof I speak!) Teachers who lose control usually aren't meeting one of the conditions I listed, or else the kids just flat don't believe the teacher wants them to succeed. In my experience, these teachers are the ones who have to rely heavily on sticks and carrots.

Fair teachers who care and who both give and demand respect, well, they almost always get it.

After reading all this, I have new perspective and appreciation for the discipline in our school district. I am soooo glad that ours is system wide, that there's no room for teacher power trips, and that "bad" kids are supported. Ours is advertised as a "positive approach" and the kids are rewarded with special montly activities which are crafts, games, movies, etc. Those who have failed to earn the threshold have an alternative activity (detention like) for the hour. It's supervised by the counselor who helps the kids deal with not being allowed to go and teaches how to "make better choices". And the kids really can learn to make better choices. Those who frequently fail to meet expectations go to the counselor and get individual plans involving parents, counselor, and teacher. It really works. But it's a teaching model, not a punishment or discipline model. Like any teaching, it doesn't reach everyone perfectly, but the kids ARE respected. And they feel the support.
FITZI, total agreement. Teachers HAVE to tolerate children and not see "disrespect" where it isn't. If they can't, they don't deserve your child. We had signed up for a private school for K and left as soon as we saw that nonsense from the principal. Our kids need to be allowed to be themselves and feel supported.

This is a good dictum.

Yes - what Kriston said!

Too true! It is the same issue. It seems to be our district's motto--no special considerations for anybody. In fact, an upper level administrator once told me that, "This is public education. Everyone gets a Chevy and your child doesn't have a right to a Cadillac." Was she talking about GT ed? Nope. She was talking about a health plan to prevent anaphylaxis. My husband wanted to tell her that all he wanted was seatbelts in the Yugo...

Apt response. I admire the character, perseverance, and intelligence you show in advocating in what sounds like a fairly tough environment. We should count our blessings that we have the private option, even if it is a stretch for us.

Thanks for your many kind notes on other threads, BTW.

I've been away for a few days and am trying to catch up on my reading. This method of discipline is used at GS9's school. It saves everyone's sanity. The child blows off excess energy but since they are restricted to one area then they still are enduring a punishment since they can't play tag or race other kids.

DS's elementary school had a brilliant counselor. When a kid was just having a bad day, the counselor could be called and the kid and the teacher would take a walk around the neighborhood and chat. Many of the behavior problems in our area are due to bad family situations and the kids just can't take the stress anymore. The counselor was a friend and mentor to many kids. And when they came back to the classroom after their walks they were much better behaved. I know it takes a lot of resources (we could have used about 5 more counselors), but it showed me how much misbehavior is just kids unable to deal with their pain. They didn't need to be taught what was wrong; they needed someone they could trust, someone who cared.

I love this acs! I think so many times kids do act out because of some sort of pain. Just having someone on your side can make such a huge difference. Your school definitely has a very wise counselor!

I know I'm late to this discussion, but I also wanted to help with spam control.
My DS7's public school just implemented a new system this school year called PBS (positive behavior system I believe). I attended the parent info. meeting this past week and from what the teachers and principals say it seems to be working. The school was using the color coded cards which kids would flip after a misbehavior and last year had their highest number of discipline referrals so they decided to try this new system.
It is all about praise, rewards (they get tokens which they get "bucks" for and then they can use them on various rewards like eating lunch with the teacher, helping out in the library or office, or a no homework pass. There are others, but I didn't think I should list them all. If they want to save them up they can and there are monthly parties which cost 45 bucks I think.
The rules (be responsible, be proud, be respectful, and show kindness) are posted everywhere to remind them....hallways, classrooms, bathrooms, cafeteria, and on the buses. The principal was saying he already saw a difference in the cafeteria and it wasn't but a week into the new school year yet.
I don't think that DS has "bought" into the system really. I did talk to him about it, but most of the rewards don't seem interesting to him, although he does like the ice cream party planned for the end of Sept. He also thinks that the teacher isn't seeing all the good behavior he is showing. He only has 3 tokens this first week when others have 5 or 6.
I do think that this behavior system will work with a lot of the students and I think that the idea of teaching them about positive behavior (they have mini lessons to help with that)is a good thing. Like acs' DS' school, the principal and counselor do realize that most of the problems stem from bad family situations so they offer counselling to help the child cope.
Ok I've rambled on enough.