Very good points. This is often the carrot that we choose to dangle under my "live and breathe science" kid. But my son would still prefer to race ahead to algebra, since that is where the cool and exciting ideas are. He sees calculus as something akin to Harry Potter's magic wand, and the faster he gets there (according to him), the better.

It is like DS8 is dreaming of running down the sidewalk to another place, when he is still learning to crawl in his own small yard. He can see down the street. He knows it is there, just waiting for him. And he doesn't understand why he can just get up and go. As a parent, you feel as if you are constantly trying to hold these kids back and slow them down. Yes, they have to master the finer details. But at what point do they just give up the dream of running free?

Just around his 8th birthday, DS was sitting and eating lunch, staring off into space. He then asked, out of the blue, "How do you calculate the volume of a cone?" And I responded, "Gee, I don't know. How do you calculate the volume of a cone?" He then preceded to tell me that if you know the area of a circle, which he does, then you could stack consecutively smaller circles upward to fill the volume. Or, he said, you could take a triangle and rotate it through a circle to fill in a cone. He is already doing the beginning steps of calculus, without any instruction at all. So much for the Calculus Trap! It is not determined by how fast the material is presented to them. It is determined by how quickly they invent the material all by themselves.

If you don't feed it along the way, it will die from neglect.

Things are very similar in our house. I regularly remind my kids about the importance of trying hard. My DS-then-5 used to say "Try hard, don't try easy!" With my kids, the results of standing firm can be impressive.

I'm also a big advocate of giving young GT kids more challenging work. Especially at this age, they need to learn how to solve problems that look too difficult at first. Ironically, the non-GT kids who have to work harder to get grade-level concepts get much more practice at this skill, which is probably very good for their future work habits. GT kids have a right to develop this skill too!

I think it's difficult for teachers to see the distinction between "working hard" on drudgery and "working hard" on challenging material. They aren't the same thing at all. A GT kid can do simple problems while watching TV or talking. He's not learning to focus his mind by doing the easy stuff. The ND kids are learning to focus when they do this stuff. GT kids should have this challenge as well.

Val

Oh!! What a wonderful way of putting that, Val!! Three cheers!!

I totally agree with Kriston when she says that those problems are very relative to age. It is much easier to work with younger child who is resisting something (simply doing it with them will be a remedy) then with a teenager.

As for Math Circles - there are different ones. Some are free, some you pay for, some are competition prep some are extended problems. The ones I encountered in Europe were focusing on extended math concepts. If you look back in my posts, we have actually managed to organize one at the college in our town.
I think that the math circle in Boston area is different, but the ones that I am familiar with are geared towards high school and advanced middle school kids. Post intermediate Algebra and Geometry.

I vote for putting it into spray bottles. That way we can spread it quickly over a large area. NB Make sure it smells good; we can tell them we're de-odorizing.




Math Kangaroo is good for deep-and-wide-type thought problems. It's not too expensive, and the kids get fun stuff: a t-shirt, a pencil holder with pencils, an eraser etc.

Val

Not with my kid!

Last year, we would spend a full hour together on dumb homework that he could have done with ease in 5 minutes 3+ years earlier. I was working with him. I said, "Just get it done and then you can play!" I said, "You have to show the teacher that you already know it." I tried all those things. None of it worked. He was miserable and acting out at home and at school. He had no respect for his teacher, and he was losing respect for me. He hated math.

What is he getting out of that? Nothing good!

We moved on to geometry, and he could do 10 times the number of problems in half the time! His joy in math returned. His respectful attitude returned. He did the problems willingly--eagerly!--because they were hard for him. He asks for hard now! And that's what I want!

He says he wants to stop cleaning his room, and I say, "No. Life is not all fun and games. You made the mess, you clean it up." He does. Drudgery galore!

I really do hear what you're saying, Ania, but I just don't see it working with my child. I've been there. I tried it. It was the exact wrong thing for him! And I don't think my child is in the minority of HG+ kids. I just hear stories like mine far too often.

I think computation skills are important, but I also think that with a spiral curriculum, the opportunities to fill in the gaps are easy to come by.

If you do drill with a kid and it isn't killing the love of math or the respect for the teacher, then I'm all for it. But I think these two problems are far more likely in the GT population and far more harmful than the danger of not learning the times tables (or whatever) RIGHT THIS SECOND. The kid will memorize the multiplication tables eventually. But if he comes to hate math and think all teachers are idiots, then multiplication is the least of your worries!

Yes, the one in Boston takes children as young as 4. From what I hear it is devoted to teaching the kids to explore a problem together in the spirit of playing with ideas. I suspect it takes a very good teacher/moderator to make this work well, but when successful I'm pretty sure it is my ideal for the best kind of learning in any subject.

BB

I did not mean to say that kids will do boring things when we sit down with them Of course you have to keep them interested and follow their lead. But it is easier - at least it was for me - to make my kids "do something" when they were younger because all it really took in majority of cases was a gentle persuasion from me and me actually seating down with them.
My kids never bolted out at "boring" calculations, but when the time came to "show work" there were some issues. To this day I tell my son to do more on paper - head is great for ideas but not for calculations. It is after all calculations that we make most mistates in when it comes to more complex problems.
When DD is working on Aleks she is not allowed to use the calulator. She can only use it on tests to double check her answers. As a result her calculations are generally more correct tha her mathy brother's, who jumps from idea to idea (he is much better now, he has learned that one can loose a lot by making a mistake in addition )

But of course you have to make it interesting, and you do it.

Hello all,

I took some wise advice and a step back.......

Thanks for all the well wishes and concerns. I'd hit a little roadblock and became extremely frustrated. DD WILL be leaving for the math hour.....things continue to progress slowly.......onward we march.

Lots of great discussion, ideas and excellent points. One comment particularly jumped out at me:



Working hard on drudgery vs. challenging material. Hmmmmmmm. Working hard on challenging material: promotes good work ethic, sticktuitiveness, and definately good self esteem, a feeling of self efficacy.
Working hard on drudgery: For our highly able children, if this happens consistently, over time it will condition them to procrastinate and spin their wheels. Excessive time spent on this conditions the child to be unproductive. It can become a part of who they are and how they manage their day as adults.

I would recommend that every parent with a HG,EG, PG very carefully consider this.

This knowlege has a lot to do with what I do and will continue to do.

Peace,
Neato

You go, girl! I hope everyone involved (ahem) gets on board with you and it all works out to be an ideal situation for DD8.