I posted in the testing thread about my dd who was recently tested by an independent evaluator. While I am so relieved that we now have proof, if you will, of an issue that's holding her back, I must be honest and admit that I'm a bit disappointed in the scores. I know, I know, it's just a number, but now I wonder if I've just been a pushy mom all this time, overexaggerating her abilities!

I was hoping that we'd finally get confirmation once and for all of my dd's giftedness as well as an idea of what's been holding her back, but it turns out that she's just very bright according to her scores, not even plain-vanilla gifted as I had thought she was at the very least. Sure, she has some subtest scores way up there, but it's not across the board, it's not clear-cut at all. All those checklists and tables of characteristics of gifted vs. bright that I've looked at...even though my dd fit the description of gifted, she's really not. It's just a label, I keep telling myself, and she's more than just a label.

That said, we have a very bright girl (btw, I have never labeled her as gifted to other people, I've always described her as "very bright" which I guess is the truth now, lol!) who works very slowly and is very much a perfectionist.

Is there anyone else here, and I know this board is associated with the Davidson Inst. and from what I've read so far every one here has kids with amazingly high IQs, who has found themselves in a similar situation?

If it makes you feel any better, my kids' scores are all over the map.

When I first came to this board, I felt a little guilty because I was not sure my kids were at par with the other kids.

We do not have a clear picture and I doubt we ever will. There are many people on this board in the same boat. I often say that I envy those people whose kids have a clear profile.

High subtest scores do mean something, and having a learning issue really compounds the matter.

Neither of my kids even has an FSIQ in the gifted range. DS11 would qualify for a gifted program that takes into account his GAI score. DS8, who is so clearly HG+ in math, would not be accepted to any gifted program in our area.

Food for thought, a paragraph taken from this link(http://www.helendowland.fasthit.net/What%20is%20a%20gifted%20child.htm):

"However - experience has taught me that IQ tests are not infallible, and that there are children who are clearly gifted, who don't score highly on their IQ test. (The term "clearly gifted" is hard to explain succinctly - basically it means a child who is clearly able to do many things that are usually only done by much older children. Also see the page "How do I know if my child is gifted?") In recent years the problem with IQ tests has mostly been due to the use of out-dated or inappropriate IQ tests, because a modern test that was appropriate for gifted children wasn't available (see the explanation on the page "Testing Gifted Children"). Since 2005 the new Stanford Binet 5 test has been available, and this is the only test that should now be used for gifted children; parents should ask insistantly for this test, in order to require psychologists to move on from the much-used WISC-III, which was never appropriate to test gifted children (again, see "Testing Gifted Children").

Even so, there are various factors that can cause a lower IQ test than a child's "giftedness" would indicate. A common reason for this is that a gifted child may have neural "glitches", which show up in the school context as Specific Learning Difficulties; these can cause the child to score lower on some subsets of the IQ test, causing the overall "IQ" to be lower. The child may therefore have giftedness that is very apparent in his/her conceptual ability and general understanding, but in some of the neural tasks that we usually take for granted s/he may have difficulty. I have included an introduction to some aspects of Learning Disabilities in gifted children on the page "Gifted Learning Disabled"; do refer to this page as it has some very helpful practical information, but also do search further because this is a vast field. Gifted children with learning disabilities are now being called "Twice Exceptional". In the case of a child who scores at a gifted level on many of the subsets of an IQ test, but scores lower on some subsets that are clearly related to dyslexia, auditory processing problems, or some other neural glitch, I always still regard that child as "gifted" - he or she is, as the new terminology says, twice exceptional - exceptional in being gifted, and exceptional in having some form of processing difficulty; such a child will need help for the issues of both these exceptionalities.

However, sometimes the cause of low scores on an IQ test, by a child who is clearly gifted, even highly gifted, simply remains unknown. Do they think too much "outside the box", or do they have a particular nervousness in the testing situation? - unknown. In my experience cases like this are rare, but they do occur. Ultimately, if he/she seems like a gifted child, thinks like one and acts like one, s/he very probably is one."

Richard Feynman, clearly gifted with an IQ test score in the 120's:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with Davidson, nor are my children in DYS. I'm just a poster who greatly appreciates the generosity of the organization to provide this free forum for exchanging information.

I don't want to request info you're not comfortable sharing, Mombot, but would you consider posting all her scores?

I searched and found your post about her test results, but I didn't see a post containing all the scores. Sometimes getting the complete picture of the test can help make sense. Spiky profiles containing highs and lows are VERY common for GT kids.

I think you also have to consider if there were any reasons why she might not have been having a good test day: lack of sleep, hunger, starting the test too low, starting the test too high, taking the worng test for her particular way of thinking, etc. can all affect test scores.

A test is only a snapshot, and it's not at all hard for test results to be returned that are too low. Especially if the results don't line up with what you see, then I'd question the test before I'd question your observations. You live with her all the time. The test was one day for a couple of hours at most.

Also, was she tested by a GT expert? That makes a BIG difference, too.

I don't think I'd counsel you to throw up your hands and say, "Oh well, she's not GT" at this point. I think you just need more information.

FWIW...

Mombot, I would not want to hazard a guess as to whether or not your child is gifted, but I would like to say something about the levels of intellectual ability. I think a lot of people (even here on this board) lose perspective of what a particular IQ score denotes. IQ scores of just one deviation above the average (115+) are actually high scores. Children in this realm are capable of all sorts of higher acheivement. And people with scores in the 120's perform with an outstanding array of abilities. I think it's been reported somewhere that the average IQ of medical school graduates is 125. And medical school isn't exactly a cakewalk. If you have a copy of Ruf's Losing our Minds, take a look at Appendix C where levels of giftedness are denoted for historical figures, take a look at some of the idividuals listed for level one, which would probably not be considered gifted for most school programs (Hernando Cortes, Ulysses Grant, Andrew Jackson, Martin Luther) and level 2's, which are commonly (and kind of negatively, I think) called plain vanilla gifted (Charles Darwin, Johan Sebastien Bach, Abraham Lincoln).

115+ children are probably quite capable of working a grade level above the average and "plain vanilla" children are usually capable of working about 2 grades above level. Many people read descriptions of kids with really high scores and determine that if thier child does not score similarly than they are just not gifted/smart enough and therefore can probably be quite content in a regular school setting. Remember, the average IQ in the US is 100. Any score above that, regardless of the number, is evidence of advanced intellectual ability and needs to be dealt with accordingly. And if you have noticed something in your child that brought you to this board, then there is probably something in your child that needs some attention and differentiation.

Well contemplated and well said.

thank you, thank you for those words. I appreciate this board so much and I've only been here a few weeks. It really helps me to put things in perspective.

Kriston - here are her scores (she's 8y6m)

WISC-IV Subtests and Composites

Similarities 15 Vocabulary 15 Comprehension 11 (Information) (14) Verbal Reasoning 121
Block Design* 11* Picture Concepts 13 Matrix Reasoning 18 (Picture Completion) (13) Perceptual Reasoning 125*
Digit Span 11 Letter-Number Sequence 13 (Arithmetic) (15) Working Memory 116
Coding 7 Symbol Search 9 (Cancellation) (9) Processing Speed 88
Full Scale IQ 118 GAI 127

The * points to the Block Design subtest where she reached her ceiling corresponding to a score of 11, but because all of her responses to that point were correct, but not within the allowed time, the evaluator continued to give her the other items and she proceeded to get all of them correct, the rest within the allowed time. Her evaluator explained that it was clear her perceptual skill was quite strong, but slow speed interfered.

Also NWEA MAP scores (which I think I had posted already, but it might help to have it all in the same place):

Math 89th %'ile
Language Usage 99th %'ile
Reading 99th %'ile
Lexile Range 1000-1150

I know her scores are not DYS-worthy, and probably not even on a good day would they be. Testing took 3 hours vs. the average of 2 because of her slow working speed. btw, the evaluator was very experienced with gifted kids so I think she would know but even in her emails and report, it's not ever clear if she feels my dd is or not.

Go CFK! Well Said!

In addition here are some more of my pocket definitions of 'gifted':

Gifted is as gifted does: If your child loves to learn and immerses herself in learning, then they are gifted. If they thrive in a learning environment designed for older kids, they are gifted.

Gifted means that the child has special educational needs that are only occasionally met in the regular classroom. ((Note that regular varies from location to location))

Having a gifted kid is when you would never chat with your local friends about what your child is doing - both the good and the bad, and not because you are a private person. If you have become really good at turning the topic of conversation back to what your neighbor's kids are doing and politely ohhing and ahhing, then you need to be here.

Gifted children are not better or worse than typically developing kids, they just are on a unique developmental path, all their own.

There is no universally accepted definition of 'what does the word gifted mean.' This forum is for everyone who wants to work together to think well about their kids.

Mombot, your child is a gift, no matter what the lables say. If you are following her lead thoughtfully, and giving that supported push when needed, then you are doing it right.

Love and More Love,
Grinity