ROFL!

Yeah, Dottie, K-3 is definately the worst! (said the mom with the third grader, hopefully )

So much depends on personality. Some kids tolerate drudge work they already understand and some just don't. Some would rather fight for an hour than spend 5 minutes doing the work. <shrug> Just how they're built.

The behavior problems seem far more troublesome to me. I really think those issues tend to be sincere cries for help from HG+ kids. Not always, of course--every child is different. But I think the anger and lashing out more often than not are signs that something isn't working, and isn't working in a big way.

Just my NSHO...

NSHO....hee hee hee.....

Here's the deal though. Number one is totally steady eddie. I think her report said something about her crazy attention span even during ridiculously mundane and repetitive tasks. She would never act out or complain at school. And she never complained to me until I started to give her other options about a year ago. Once she found out what she had been missing, yeah she started complaining to me, but never at school.

Number two has a short fuse and is more likely to rage: "2+2.......I'm mad as heck and I'm not takin it anymore!".

Do we just accomodate the squeaky wheel. Number one left to tolerate an inadequate learning environment just because she will?

Making a point mind you. Currently, the school is going to great lengths in an attempt to accomodate both of them......now.

Nope. I think you accomodate both of them, naturally.

I just think that a child who acts out is SCREAMING that something is wrong. A child who is not acting out may be in just as much trouble, and I think you worry about that one, too. But my big worry in this particular thread is the child who is *even* acting out and is *still* pooh-poohed.

We had this problem with our DS6 for a while. We approached it by persuading him to confront his fears when he was displaying perfectionist behaviors.

I recall that writing the letter K started a huge tantrum one evening. I wouldn't give in. He had to write a K, and that was all there was to it. He sobbed and sobbed and eventually wrote the letter. I said "Hurray! You tried hard and you succeeded!" and told him he was free to go watch TV or whatever. Instead, he wrote some more Ks, still crying. I kept telling him how proud I was of him.

Next day, he came home from kindergarten beaming and all proud of what he had done during free time: he had filled an entire piece of paper with the letter K.

It's been a while since I've seen him display that type of perfectionist behavior. Things may change when work gets more challenging, but for now, he simply attempts something without complaining.

Also, it took him a while to get used to the long school day (he went to an all-day kindergarten in a 2nd language immersion school).

He's at a new ability-based school this year and I'm seeing all kinds of improvements in reading and writing. He isn't mathy like his brother yet is getting very high scores on all of his math work.

<Segue to soapbox>

Your post has reminded me yet again of the huge deficiencies in our K-12 education system. We have a near-obsessive focus on slow learners in the lower grades and a ridiculous number of students finishing high school with a 4.0 or higher average, including high marks in a fistful of so-called AP "college level" classes. I wonder how many of these straight-A students could really and truly solve a complex word problem in calculus or write a decent essay on propaganda and the fifth amendment. This mess is destroying our national brain pool, which I figure is up to 20% of our students.

I had a bit of an online debate at the NY Times education blog site last week. This summary is simplified somewhat, but:

A teacher of an AP class had written a piece that defended grading tests on a curve (if 59% was the highest score, then 59% was an A). Some college-level faculty who wrote comments were very critical of this practice. Most complained that leading B/C/D students to believe that they were A students was unfair to the students, their future employers, and their future professors. The other side of the debate argued about the importance of building self-esteem and not wanting to crush spirits in students who were accustomed to getting As. <sigh> I figure they're just building these kids up for an excruciatingly painful experience later, when they go to college or to work.

And meanwhile, the gifted students still aren't getting much out of the experience, and are, in particular, not learning what it really takes to turn in superior work in the real world.

Okay, I'll climb off the soapbox now!

Val

Argh. How awful.

My eldest was a big troublemaker in kindergarten. Part of the problem was personality, but part of it was the subject matter he had to study. He was on chapter books and division, and his class was putting its collective finger on the letter B and counting 10 objects. The second language part of the day helped, but not enough, I think. The school was also very rigid in its disciplinary policies, which I think is a major contributor to problems with kids. When expectations are unrealistic, it's no wonder that they have problems!

So, I guess what I'm saying is to check into the expectations of the school. I used to tell my DS that grownups can be wrong sometimes. This seemed to soothe him. It meant a lot for him just to hear someone acknowledge his point of view and say "I agree; the teacher was wrong that time." It also made him more receptive to hearing that the teacher was right another time.

Now he comes home from his new school enthusiastic and happy. I'm writing this to say, don't despair! School can work. I hope your gifted school works out. My advice: see if you can help the people trying to get it off the ground.

Val

Yeah, my DS6 isn't likely to act out at school, he's more likely to withdraw completely or try to remake himself into a more socially acceptable form. I don't think those are good solutions at all though. I hope I am aware enough of the mismatch and his personality so that I can catch things before they get too bad.



Well, you probably know as well as I do that the ability of the teacher to write an appropriate test affects the test scores. Often it is beneficial to write a difficult test in order to spread out the curve sufficiently. May not arise so much with high school AP classes, those are probably pretty well standardized, but it certainly does at the university level.

Crisc, you are in really tough situation. If the problems started when he went to school then the problem is most likely school. I would worry that consulting gets you only that far. What needs to be fixed is the school situation and hopefully everything else will fall in place. Of course, I have NO idea how to make the school a better place for him.

JBDad, I think it's really hard to get a good match for HG+ in the early years. DS6 is not in PS simply because I just couldn't see how they could make it work even if they really, really tried. They would have to skip him 2 years and put him with 8 and soon 9 year olds (noway he could make it socially) and still accelerate him in math. BTW I just saw what a son of a friend of mine does in the 2nd grade. They are learning how to do 8+7. Ouch.

DS6 was always a perfectionist, but a year ago when he started K in Montessori it really hit big time. Things were quite bad here. Fortunately it has been much, much better since. We still run into problems and it may never go completely away but it's nowhere close to where we were last fall. Last week he got only 10 out 12 questions on his CyberEd test correct (he missed one and pressed a wrong button once) and he was happy about it. I was ready to throw a party!

Crisc, sorry to hear of your situation, my DW now is a TA at a pretty good public school. The school is pretty good and so are the teachers, I am always in shock about how many issues they do have. What I am seeing is that in k-3 there are adjustments. My DW also TAs for the 3rd grade. The kids just seem to fall in line more. I agree with Kriston that what might be normal child behavior for some , is not for the HG child. A poor fit is a poor it, and why should our children be made to go with the a program that is a big mis match. It's the nature of educating the masses, vs one-on one. It's teachers understanding that the HG population does not fit wihin the curve. Last year I had a hard time explaning this to my DW. A teacher may have never encounter children like ours, many are ill prepared. And we must always remember that in K and 1 many teachers get the "My child is gifted, what are you going to do about it" from many a parent. What is good on this board is that we can share our experances, and relize we are not alone in our advocation for our children. I see a common thread that after 3rd grade some of these issues go away, I would be very sad to learn that it was because children now resign themselves to what is expected rather then what they can do.I wish I had an answer for Crisc, JB, or even myself. The best we can do is be vigilent, and do what we can do outside of the school. Last year my wife and I knew that our DS would not gain anything from K in regards to academics, but we supplimented, worked with the teacher, the school. It worked ok. Each year is a new trial. My favorite saying on this board is "Once you have seen one gifted child, you have seen one gifted child" For us we realize that the school system is not the place our child will learn the most, its at home. The school is just a tool, even if it can be a blunt one.

Yes Edwin.... and even blunt tools can cut. The tricky part is to know when that blunt tool is ok, applying pressure, or cutting.