Does anyone want to tell their "Crash and Burn" stories? What can happen to gifted, highly gifted and profoundly gifted kids who's are unidentified and unaccomidated in the classroom? What helped?

My hat is off to you who are aware and alert from earlier ages that your children have special educational needs. I - OTOH - was in severe "gifted denial" that took months and months of "you-know-what" hitting the fan before I understood that being gifted isn't somekind of taint of the blood that one tries to hide so they can have some level of postive social interactions, and hopes to avoid passing down to their children. I really bought the whole pack of lies about my own educational needs - that I was lucky, that I could take care of myself, that if I waited long enough that I would eventually be challenged, in college or beyond, and that that was "to be expected."

I also think that because of this "gifted denial" some parents are reluctant to channel a child's obvious interest in academics into afterschool work. I was so afraid that I would "make matters worse" that I consiously avoided any afterschooling, and encouraged his interests in as broad a variety of learning as possible, so he knew all the lyrics of the Simon and Garfunkle Box Set, and about plants and art and politics. I didn't want to "cause" him to be bored in school. I didn't want him to be disliked for already knowing everything. HA. It's not my fault that he was bored! It wasn't his fault that he was bored! He was different. He needed different things than what he was getting. I wanted him to be able to fit in as well as possible. I figured that learning was going to be 'no problem' so why worry about it? I had no idea that being gifted means that you NEED to learn, like air and water. The "I'm not hothouse parent" approach later backfired when the teachers didn't see "that he was so different, after all, he can't do his times tables better than our best students." Also, this tradition of not asking more from him than the school asked contributed to him being firmly in the "enforced underachiever" camp. He didn't want to learn extra at home, and I hadn't thought to establish the habit from the begining.

So we got "behavior complaints" in first grade, that improved with a "checklist" and reward system. Then came 2nd grade - "crash and burn" time....to be continued....
Trinity.

Here's how I told the story of the Crash and Burn in March of 06, about a year and a half ago. I wonder what I will think of it now?

Hi Jaxsmom,
I found myself retyping "the story" and since I had it dreged up I though of your question, and will repost it here. It's so easy for me to "forget" how painful that time was - which is good. But it was so bad. In retrospect i think my son was inattentive in school because he was depressed and anxious, perhaps clinically. I don't think that's true now - Thanks Be. Here it is:

When my son was in 2nd grade, the school asked our permission to complete a "behavior scale" and gave us one to complete at home. Then we had a meeting. We were told that our scale revealed that our dear son was at risk for 9 or 10 catagories like: agression, anxiety, atipicalily, depression and that his in school scale showed him as "significant" even worse in those catagories. Then we were told that even though our son's teacher had 20 years experience and was particularly strong in handling kids with ADHD, that our son's behavior in class was "like nothing she has ever seen before." Our state has a law that school personel are not allowed to give a diagnosis. I thought this was very innapropriate. So we went to a local child psychologist who noted that our son tested "very superior" on the WISC III in many of the substest but average or below average on a few. Although we liked this gentleman, I feel he was unqualified to interpret a WISC III that was so high. His take on our son was that our son might certianly be a little bored at school, but that the behavior problems where due to the splay in his scores, and could be thought of as a "relative" Non Verbal Learning Disorder. When we shared back our "diagnosis" there was another meeting where they showed us checklists about NVLD and ADHD and have multiple school specialists explain to us why ADHD was a better fit than NVLD. If I had know then what I know now i would have realized that unaccomidated giftedness is associated with many of the things they were concerned about. My belief is that a child like this can not be evaluated for NVLD or ADHD unless they are in an academic setting which is appropriate for them. I wish I was in a position to homeschool or try private schools but I am not, and my son reports that he likes his school and his friends. It's two years later, and a wonderful 3rd grade teacher, and a 4th grade teacher who tries her best to accomidate him in the classroom have improved the situation quite a bit. BTW, when we asked the school for single subject acceleration, our son was evaluated by their specialists and found to "not be a very deep thinker in math." and turned down. (He got the highest possible score in reasoning on the WISC IV that they regave him this January.)His behavior at school is "so-so." Thankfully He was accepted into the Davidson Young Scholar Program and I have had so much support and information! It's my glimmer of hope. I am still trying to work within the Public School system.

DS's crash and burn, part 3...
He-He!
I left out the "no one wants to sit next to him because he makes so much disturbance." which we got in 2nd and 4th, but when I asked the 3rd grade teacher about it - she had no clue what we were talking about. Having a teacher, like the 3rd grade lady, who is top tenth of a percent in teaching is very useful!

He had no friends in 2nd and was in the middle of a great friendly group in 3rd. go figure!

I finally got up the courage to look at Private schools the summer after 4th, and started him in a local day-prep type Last September. I realized that there was this pit in my stomach that would not allow me to send DS back to that public school, even though things had improved somewhat with "in-class" enrichment. So off to the private school in September, and a mid-year skip into their Middle School in October. ((Don't do this unless you have to - the IAS is right when they say bridge years are important - particularly to an underachieving and disorganized boy, who is "highly asynchrouous." Does he have ADHD? I don't know! A little more than a year ago, I brought him to a local pyschologist, who I heard was "great for advocating in the school system." This fellow diagnosed DS as "50% ADHD." He thought that if we gave him stimulent medication there was a good chance that he could sit in the regular classroom and behave well enough. Well golly, he could behave "well enough" without the medication. I just don't see how a psychologist can look at his IQ scores and think that he'll be "just fine" in a regular classroom. My concern was that he wasn't learning how to learn. He wasn't building Character that it takes to be a successful grown-up. His friends were learning what it's like to sit and do homework, how to study for tests. My boy was doing his homework in 90 seconds and whining and worried when the homework load was suddenly a 3 minutes! 2 worksheets! That's why I love the writing of Sylvia Rimm - a child who is underchallenged can look just like a kid who is overchallenged - worried and stressed. Kids need character. Does he "really" have ADHD? If the local psychologist doesn't know, than how am I supposed to know?

Luckily the school really really sees his ability to fly, and gets that he is a slow runner, but is determined to give flying lessons and keep prodding him to become the best runner he can be. ((tears)) Ok, I'm crying tears left over from the bad old days, when my son was a big mystery that no one could understand - finally he is at a school that finds him an interesting challenge, but clearly sees who he is.

Love and More Love,
Trinity

Fortunately we don't have a "crash and burn" story of our own. I highly recommend that if you plan on having a PG child, that you have a few lower G levels first to work your way up, *wink*. Truly...having DS third gave us a fair shot at addressing his needs early in the game.

That said, I just have to comment on Trinity's story. When I read that the first time, I shamefully believed the school just a tiny bit...probably not all of it, but I figured her son clearly had "issues" of some sort. Having met the child myself, I just want to alert others to the "crash and burn" risk that schools can impose, as he is a CHARMING child, full of appropriate energy, polite, etc. AND REALLY SMART! I'm blown away that the school could have such a different take on him, and that just shows me what stuffing a square peg in a round hole can do.

I just didn't want anyone else reading this story and thinking that while clearly smart, he also has "issues". I think his only "issue" is that schools don't get him, LOL!

I think of that "not a deep thinker in math" comment every time I remember our own "well he's not my top math student" from DS's teacher last year. I pulled all of his math mistakes, and almost all of them were things like misreading his own 0 as a 6, or forgetting to do half of a problem. He had 4 GT girls 2 years his senior in the class, and I'm guessing they didn't make those types of mistakes. Granted, he might NOT be her top student, but he is WELL above the 99.9th in math, and she was using this "not my top student" thinking to support NOT moving him ahead. I'm watching out for my guy, and if he wasn't her top student, shame on her for not watching out for those above him. He was WELL beyond 4th grade math on multiple test measures.

Hey, you snuck a part three in on me, ROFL! Well, at least it makes me look like a fast reader, *wink*.

Thanks Dottie - more ((tears)) - he really really is a great guy, you didn't just see him once in a crowd - you saw the whole show!
Thanks.
Trin

LoL Dottie, maybe I should plan on having two more, even beyonder than DS11, now that I have the hang of it! Well, maybe not right now. I'm really enjoying the decreased demands of this particular stage of my parenting.
smiles,
Trinity

We haven’t had a crash and burn incident. However, DS has had two teachers who were (still are, I assume) exceptionally mean and lacking in professional integrity. They tried hard to knock him down while he was stuck in their classrooms. If it weren’t for my distant but constant oversight and continuous “counseling sessions” to counteract the damage, I think he would have lost all interest in school during his 3rd grade year. His 5th grade teacher was equally bad, but he had a stronger sense of self by that point. Even without me, I don’t think she would have been able to do permanent damage.

Any examples to illustrate?

I've been rereading my kids' evaluation reports, and I realize that DD2E (10) is most at risk for "crash and burn". Some of these statements are very painful to read.

First, at 10 we now know that DD is 2E, with CAPD contributing to her "short comings". She is however the most incredibly sensitive and caring child. I can "boast" about that, because it's so NOT like me, LOL! She has dozens of friends, and is very compassionate.

Anyway, this from her first evaluation, a WISC-IV with tons of scatter that the report itself states makes the results pretty much useless. However, that same report also called her "not gifted" despite scores in the 99th percentile.

But this really burns me up in hindsight...

"Mrs. O describes DD's writing skills as average. She notes that DD does not always put forth her best effort, makes careless erros when she does not check her work, and needs reminders to write more neatly....Similarly her social skills are described as good to average with the exception of having close friends. Mrs. O has observed that DD keeps to herself most of the time. DD has friends, but is often alone. According to Mrs. O DD lacks the enthusiasm and carefree attitude that most 2nd graders exhibit. Mrs. O also notes that DD is quiet and appears to daydream in class."

This is so NOT my daughter! She writes TONS! Her spelling is horrendous, but when I started DS early in K, DD's writing output was one thing that gave me pause (DS does not like to write, but holds his own).

And the "friend" stuff is ridiculous. Mrs. O didn't have a clue, and it makes me mad rereading that. DD really feeds off of the personality and enthusiasm of her teacher, and what Mrs. O was seeing must have been the mirror of her OWN attitude.

Fortunately we retested DD the following year (almost 9) and her new psych got her COMPLETELY. In fact, this same psych had tested my YS DS and despite the scores on paper (DS higher by 6 points), felt that DD was "more gifted" than my son. That psych's take on DD has given me pause ever since. Hmmmm....

Anyway, I digress!

Oh and Trinity, I'm cracking up at the idea of you having two more "beyonder", ROFL!!!! I almost missed that post. I still have trouble navigating my way around this site.

I'm so sorry for the meanies Delbows' family experienced! Fortunately, while we've had "clueless", we haven't really had outright mean. I even liked Mrs. O for her forthrightness about the schools shortcomings, etc. But she did NOT "get" DD by any stretch. Fortunately that year was sandwhiched in between great 1st and 3rd grade teachers. We've heard good things about her new 5th grade teachers as well.

Hmm.

I believe some teachers at his school read this blog. I introduced them to the DITD website in hopes that they would be proactive. I don’t try to conceal my identity and I don’t write anything that is false and that I wouldn’t or haven’t told the principle. So, O.K.

There was one major incident in 3rd grade and one in 5th grade. In addition, there was daily criticism and nit picking.

One small incident at the beginning or 3rd, which set the tone for the year, occurred when the teacher wrote out a number line 0-10 and explained that 0 was the lowest one digit number and 10 was the lowest two digit number. My son raised his hand and asked, “Isn’t -9 the lowest one digit and -99 the lowest two digit?” (He had understood this for several years at that point) She stated, “No” and started the next day with the “Well, if you really were smart, then you ____.” This continued all year and escalated at certain points.

The big issue in 3rd grade (when he was 7 to 8 years old) occurred during the last quarter of the year in regards to the NON-GRADED Accelerated Reader Program. Each child had to earn a minimum number of points (I believe 5 or 7 was required) each period. If they chose, they could increase their stated GOAL at the beginning of each quarter. My son had read the first four Harry Potter books earlier that year (in addition to countless others) which were worth quite a few AR points each. He earned 39 AR points for the third quarter, so he set his goal at 40 AR points for the forth quarter. He took approximately 5 weeks to read H.P. the 5th. When he took the AR test, he only got 55% correct which did not pass and resulted in zero points. (I later learned that the previous four tests were at the 6th -8th grade level, but this test had been ordered at the 11th grade level and many other kids had also unexpectedly failed it.) Well, that is where she swept in. At the mid-quarter point, she announced (a new rule) that anyone who had not earned half of their AR points would not be included in the class party. So, even though my son had more AR points than many kids (from other books he had completed), he had to go to another teacher’s classroom while his class had a party. She made a point to announce to the class on several other occasions that DS would not meet his goal (the most ambitious in the class) and two days before the end of the school year, she announced that if a student had not met their goal, they would not receive their final report card or be included in the “field day” activities. She was just trying to get as much traction from this as she could at that point. Please remember that this is a non-graded requirement and he had easily surpassed the “requirement”, but missed the GOAL (that he set for himself) because the librarian had ordered the more difficult, higher grade level test as compared to the previous four which he had aced.


I’ll have to come back with the 5th grade issue.

I just missed your last post Dottie. That is so funny. The first time my kids were tested, the psych told me that DD was the REALLY gifted one also!

Well your post certainly tames down my "steam", LOL! Yikes! Unbelievable! I have my own love/hate thing going on with AR, but fortunately our teachers have been understanding thus far.

I've noticed the DD/DS similarities between our families before (delbows). You don't have a closet older child stashed away to match my first born, do you? If so...I could just follow behind your well paved footsteps, *grin*.

Only if you count my husband!

Well, that probably won't work, but it just hit me if your DD is 2 years older than your son, she's very close in age to my oldest (9/94) and can count for both of my girls, ROFL!

Like Trinity, we had a "crash and burn" in second grade also. Well, actually a couple of weeks before school started. My son however, apparently unlike Trinity's, did not show any outward signs of any problems at all. He is just the opposite, he internalizes everything. He is always quiet, always perfectly well-behaved, never talks in class, always stays in his seat - the perfect student. He also did well on everything in K and 1st, not perfect top of the class, but right up there in the top 5. After having a rocky start with his older brother, I thought "How nice, I can sit back with this one and relax!"

This lasted through preschool, kindergarten and first grade. Now I did find it odd that his kindergarten teacher told me that his ability level seemed to match whatever group she put him with. She even experimented by moving him from the lowest to the highest in reading and math groups and sure enough, at the lowest table he missed questions, at the highest he got them all right. I chalked that up to being 5.

His first grade teacher nominated him to be tested for the gifted program (because again, when placed with the high group, he did well). He did a little better than average on the screening test but not high enough to make the cut-off for further screening. (I knew nothing of IQ testing in those days, nor really knew what the gifted program was, so saw no need to do any follow-up.) Again, I thought, "That's fine, he is not gifted but he is a good student who will never have any probelms in school". I did find it odd that he scored a 99% in reading on the elementary standardized test and only a 25% on the math section. I chalked it up to being 6. Meanwhile, I was still focused on the older brother who was finally just startng to get into the school groove and do well.

Then comes the month before 2nd grade started. There were nightmares, crying, stomach aches, headaches, trips to the pediatrican, and finally the statement from him that he "can't do it again, he can't do another year like the last one in school", with no real explanation as to what that meant. I chalked it up to new year jitters.

It wasn't until the first day of school that we found out that they had put him in the gifted class anyway in spite of his score. I can't bear now to think what would have happened if they had put him in a regular class that year. The 2nd grade gifted teacher was a gift from heaven! She sat down with him the first week and immediately moved him from the 2nd grade curriculum to the 3rd. Some anxiety abated, but he still cried every morning and she had to come get him from me just to get him into the classroom. Finally in February, (yes, it took me that long) I took him to see a child psychologist - a wonderful man. After a couple of sessions to get to know him, he administered the WISC-IV. Like everyone else on these boards, we were floored when we got the results. More importantly though, it seemed to open the conversation gates a little and I began to get some insight from him as to what he was going through. Apparently the reason he never talked in school was because he learned early on that if you talked then people would know that you knew stuff and then they would ask you more questions. For a shy person, this was like shining a spotlight on him. He also learned that if you did the best in class or got everthing right, people would know that you knew stuff. Again the spotlight.

By the age of 7, he had an elaborate scheme worked out where he would determine who was the top of the class and would tailor his performance so that he scored just lower than that person. He would watch his teacher and if she was presenting something that she seemed to think would be difficult for the class to get, he would make sure he got a "C" grade. That standardized test in 1st grade? He thought the reading and math section would be averaged together and he would have come out with an average grade.

The gifted class, with its higher ability children and the great teacher helped him get his feet under him a little. But after another year in the class, I knew it was not going to be enough. We had him skip the 4th grade and enrolled him in the 5th grade in a private school. Again, it helped a little. We ended up moving over the holidays, skipped him again and enrolled him in the 6th grade for the second half of the year at another private school. This fall he starts 7th grade with another year acceleration in math.

Is it enough? No, I don't think so. But this is a gifted school so there are more likeminded peers and they are trying to accomodate his needs. He still monitors his performance, he still tries to aim for 2nd best, although it's becoming harder for him to disguise himself. Fortunately, the staff at this school sees right through that, hence the move to 8th grade for math. I know that is not his true limit though, I just don't what is.

So, of course I have mother guilt and kick myself for not seeing what was happening. Meanwhile, we still pay for that bad start. The physical syomtoms are gone but he sees absolutely nothing worthwhile about going to school. Like Dottie and others have mentioned, at least I learned from my mistake. His 8 year old brother has already skipped a grade and accelerated another 2 years on top of that for math. He likes school. I'm doing my best to keep that spark going.

CFK

Oh My CFK,
((flush))
((tears))
((goose-flesh))

It's like you and your son have been with me for the last 4 years. While I was dealing with the difficulty of my "in your face" boy, I kept reminding myself (through clenched teeth) how lucky I was to have an "externalizer" instead of an "internalizer" and I would imagine being in your shoes, even though I had never met you. I was sure that someone somewhere was living that other life. And now here your are! And they are so close in age, and both entering 7th grade! Wow, your son has such an amazing ability to read people - it's wonderful - i pray that as he grows he will be able to make it work for him.

We have found, like you, that it's a slow process, and having a school that "sees right through him" is such a big help! When you feel guilty remember that there are plenty of kids out there that don't ever get the parental or professional support anytime before late high school or in college. Your son gets both - later than you would have wished, but wow - they put him in the gifted program anyway! Go School!

Did you also get your older son's IQ/achievement tests done in February? Have you applied to YSP? When you moved was it across town, or did he have to start all over with his friendships? I predict "big growth" years for both our boys - both styles are needed in this world!

Smiles,
Trinity

CFK,
I’m sorry that your son had such a terrible experience as he tried to adjust to his environment, but over-all, it sounds like you have found the best possible situation for the near term. Both of the schools you describe seem proactive. That is at least half the battle.