Hi again Willa Gayle,

So now I will give myself the DUH comment.

That's what I get for reading through the posts too quickly. I was taking it as 1/3 of the children are so bright that they need extra special services, not just being higher than average.

I was reacting as a former teacher who heard a lot of parents tell me that their child was not challenged, when they were definitely working at an appropriate level. I also accelerated a 4th grader to algebra and helped a 5th grader skip to the next grade with further subject acceleration, so I knew how to spot children who did need more.

So, I apologize for my first post being of the DUH variety!

I'll read more closely before I respond next time!

When my daughter was in preschool, I heard over and over again, "Everyone thinks their child is gifted." That is why I finally had my daughter tested when she was four. I was tired of being dismissed as "just another proud momma." The diagnostician that tested my daughter told me of another young girl whose mother insisted she was gifted. When tested, the girl scored an even 100 for her total IQ.

I also have a good friend who is a kindergarten teacher that warned me not to tell my daughter's teacher that she was gifted because that tends to put teachers on the defensive. Apparently, there are enough parents out there that falsely promote their children as being gifted that educators are immediately wary when a parent suggests that their child is gifted.

Hi Adpugliese (and any other lurkers, particularly those who been teachers inside the school system)
Welcome ((big smile))

Thank you for accelerating the 4th grader to algebra! Speaking as a mom whos kid just got accelerated from first month of 5th grrade to prealgebra - that is a huge jump! My son is blinking and stumbling like a newborn kitten - very heartwarming to see!

Thanks for helping the 5th grader GS with additional SSA! (Was it a girl with good handwriting and good teacher reading ability? Was it an acting out boy?)

I would love to hear pages and pages from a "former teacher" perspective. Our last years teacher said that she worked SO hard to get one of her boys a single grade SSA in Math, and the Principal was convinsed, but the district put a stop to it at the last minute. Still, a different teacher in that grade allows parents to purchase EPGY MATH and use it in class, and my teacher's picture of inclass Math enrichment was commercial software that quized the times tables - which is good but isn't EPGY and didn't meet my child's needs.

What do you make of the the discrepancy between so many parents who say their child isn't challenged and your observations of their work level? Did you have any tricks to demonstrate to the parents that the child is at correct challenge level? (Sort of a teachers analog to the parents bringing in a video tape?)

One of the thinks I'm most curious about, is who other people - parents, teachers and administration think about the range of individuals in the catagory "Gifted."
If you (and any other lurking teachers or Admin) don't mind sharing what your mental images of this are - I'd really appreciate it! Since numbers don't mean much to the decision making adults, how do Teachers approach this question - yes they are gifted, but what signals does a teacher look for that her student's needs are being met? How far from average is this child?


Thanks in Advance,
Trinity

Hi Trinity,

I will try to answer your questions as best I can. First of all, I taught at a small private school, so I wasn't held to district policies in making decisions.

The student who I put in algebra as a 4th grader later was accelerated a full year. What happened with his math was this: we had decided to test all 5-8 graders in math and make groups based on ability rather than grade level--what a concept! The one little student was obviously above 4th grade level, so I tested him at the same time. When they formed the math groups they put him in pre-algebra. I happened to be the teacher for pre-alg and alg, and it was clear that he was breezing through the material. So, at parents' night, I just told his parents that I was going to put him in algebra. Naturally they didn't argue against this! So, in that case, I kind of did the "easier to say sorry later than ask for permission and get rejected." The director of the school did say something about, "what is he going to do next year?" since the school was K-8, but I answered with, it's either next year or the year after--it's something that will have to be dealt with."

The other child was a boy who sat in class and looked out the window most of the day, yet still got decent grades. His mother was concerned, saying he used to be a good student, etc., so I told her that he was probably bored. We moved him up a grade and further accelerated him in math, and he did much better after that.

As far as why parents think their children are gifted when they may be high average or something else, I can only guess. What I think is that some parents think that getting all A's means their child is not being challenged. I think it means (in some cases) that they are working hard at their level. I think that a student putting in average effort, but still learning should get grades of C or B-, students putting in great effort can get A's. Then there are students who put in minimum effort and get A's. These students are probably gifted. And, as we all know there are those who misbehave, stare out the window, don't get A's, but are still gifted. These are the ones that are most likely hg or pg. Unfortunately all teachers don't realize this.

If a child truly needs acceleration, I believe they should still be capable of getting A's or B's in the level they move up to. In the cases of parents who think their kids are not being challenged, I showed them examples of pretests in which their child did not do well (as they shouldn't have done if they hadn't learned the material). If the child aced a pretest, then was made to sit through the same material, there would be a problem. However, if a child has trouble on a pretest, learns the material through the lessons, then studies hard and gets an A on the test, I believe they are a good student, not necessarily a gifted one.

So, that's my experience. I hope I answered your questions. Sorry I don't have insight into administrator's views (especially in public school).

Wow Cransaer!
I loved hearing those stories. I'm so pleased to hear about the cross grade math! You really stood up for that little guy. On behalf of Parents of Gifted everywhere - Thank you!

I was wrong in thinking that the kid who got skipped must be a female with good handwriting, but I do think it's telling that he boy didn't act out, rather he was "acting in." Still I love the way you didn't ask for any expensive testing, just gave it a try.

As for Pre-testing - Wow - Wow! The only time that my DS10 got a pretest at school, the teacher made much of how amazing it was that he got the concept without being taught it, and then proceded to subject him to the complete "learning experience." I'm always asking for Pre-testing whenever I get school meetings regarding accomidations, and am always met with blank stares. I was told that a particular Math Program didn't have tests, so no pre-test could be done. I called the company, and they said that their learning objective could certainly be used as a pre-test. That didn't get me anywhere.

I agree heartliy that pre-testing to 85% is a lovely way to protect a child's will to be in a school environment. If you are pretesting, then you are totally off the hook. I'm believing you when you say that the child is definitly challenged. When my son was being turned down for subject acceleration or grade skips it was never about what he knows and what he is developmentally ready to learn. It was all about:
his "immature" behavior
his tendency to be "off topic"
his handwriting
his difficulty talking about his thought process in Math.

Example: How do you know that 2 plus 1 equals three?
DS: I thought about 2 plus 1 and the number 3 showed up in my head.

(for those of you who are now mystified - the "correct" answer was -
I had two cookies and I got another cookie, and I counted them up and got three.
OR
I looked it up on an addition table
OR
I started on the number line at 2, and when one jump to the right. I looked at the number at that place - It was three.)

I actually think that this is wonderful and important, and that my son learned a lot of good skill trying to do this activity. If they had been able to do this type of learning at a level where he could have also learned some Math, I would have been very pleased. Instead, it became a reason to hold him with age mates - not ok.

This is what makes me so curious about what teachers look for to know that a child needs an acclerated course.

I do agree that parents are quite confused at looking at "A"s on report cards. What do they mean? Is everyone getting them? I know a classroom where all the children got 100% or higher on a quiz, recently. One of the children didn't study. What kind of message is that child getting from their 103%? Can a PG child in a regular classroom get all "A"s and be underachieving? It seems likely that this will be true much of the time.

Thanks for being so game and answering my questions.
any other lurking teachers or Admins who dare follow your lead?

Trinity

Just a thought about pre-tests of grade level material; My son was pre-tested by his teacher in fourth grade on subjects such as “parts of a plant” and “body systems”. Sometimes he would pass, sometimes not. On almost all occasions some other student/s would do better. His teacher concluded that he must not be “gifted” in science.

He had never been interested in and studied these systems so he wasn’t an expert. The teacher’s assessment didn’t take into consideration his intense interest and knowledge of physics (which I am certain is beyond her own).

Cransaer, thank you for that incredibly informative post. I'm sorry to note that you no longer teach. I can tell you were truly a gift to every child that passed through your door. I pray my son gets a teacher half as insightful as you are.

Trinity-it never occured to me to ask my son why he knows the answers to math problems. I'm dyslexic and was never diagnosed so I just know the answer. It doesn't follow a linear pattern. I had never thought it should.

I'm still trying to see if my son can hop.... LOL

I can't believe how hard all of you struggle to have your child educated. I think it's sad

I'm interested, Cran, in how you would deal with a 2e kiddo whose attentional issues effect performance (i.e. careless errors or misunderstanding directions on homework sheets)?

Oh yeah!
Cran - I want to hear about that too -

I always heard from teachers- he's not checking his Math sheets, and I privatly thought - It's amazing that he's doing those math sheets! But I said outloud - he may never have the attention to check his Math, but at least if it's at a proper level he'll have incentive to do so. they didn't buy it.

Trinity

I believe I left one out of my prior list....

If your son really is gifted, go ahead and get him started on medication before he starts kindergarten. In our experience, all gifted kids are ADHD.....

The hop on one foot story reminded me of what happened when we tried to get DS into preschool. He was turned down because he would be too bored in preschool and he isn't ready for a fourth grade classroom yet.

Mary