I thought I'd bring this over to start a new thread because DH and I were just discussing this exact position last night. We both felt like the public schools we attended as GT kids (in two vastly different regions of the US) were far better at challenging GT kids than public schools are today.

Why, you ask? Well, I honestly don't think it is our own personal "Ah, those were the days." Neither DH nor I are prone to wax nostalgic for our school days...and, boy, is that ever an understatement! Still, we see a lot more people with GT kids who are HIGHLY dissatisfied with the job the schools are doing now than seemed to be the case 30 or so years ago. Anyone else see this? If so, why? What's changed? Why are things getting worse for GT kids instead of better?

(And, of course, if you disagree with this observation, why do you disagree?)

My theory is that the end of clustering has made things infinitely harder for GT students. Differentiation within the regular classroom--our school's primary means of GT stimulation--is so dependent upon the individual teacher's skill and interest that using this as the primary means of stimulating GT kids is overall a dismal flop as a system. It's too hard for teachers to teach separate lessons to each child's ability level, so most of them just don't bother at all. Pull-out enrichment helps, but what there is of it tends to start too late and consist of too little.

I'm curious to see what the rest of you think! Are the public schools doing a worse job with GT kids now than in the past, and if so, why?

I don't necessarily disagree, but thought I'd point out the difficulty of our changing perspective. That is - you remember schools 30 years ago from the perspective of a student, might be interesting to ask what your parents thought.

Both my parents and DH's found dealing with schools one of the most difficult aspects of parenting. (And my parents were working IN the schools!) My DD10's GT program is almost exactly what I had, almost 40 years ago...(eek!)

So. I don't know if it is worse or not. It's certainly bad enough.

My GT program (as a child) was very experimental and kind of weird, all said and done. I remember doing some things that I would definitely NOT approve of for my own kids today. My regular schooling had much to be desired too, but I went to a school that is ranked today somewhere around 484 out of 501, so that might have been the bigger problem.

I don't know....I know I'm WAY more educated on the subject than my parents were, and that certainly helps. It's hard to say which base level of education was better though, now or then.

Totally a random thought here but I wonder if our society's desire that everyone be the same has anything to do with it? Lets face it, we live in a time where individuality is suppressed for the "greater good". Everything has to be pc and when trying to do that everything becomes a boring shade of gray. Maybe it trickles down, know what I mean?

Hmm, yes. But I still think that being as objective as one can be about the programs in place then vs. what's going on now, things are worse now. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't hear about much progress. And my mom was VERY active in the field back in the day. She was an educator herself (as was her mother before her) and she started a support group/extracurricular enrichment program for GT kids in our area. She definitely knew her stuff. She was even elected to the school board.

You know, perhaps the fact that someone focusing on GT ed COULD be elected to the school board supports my point! That would never happen in this neighborhood today. I guarantee it.

I think Tammy makes a good point. The drive to make school uniform is what happened to clustering, I think. "If everyone can't be in the Bluebird group, then no one can be...You're not special!"

(Not that clustering would be enough for these kids, of course. But at least it was better than making teachers try to teach all kids the same material at different levels, all at the same time. That just seems like a total failure as a system.)

There is definitely a strong theme of "all kids can achieve" running through schools today. We used to offer algebra "early" to the very top only. Now we offer it to the top 1/3, and hope to offer it to all in the near future. I'm on a GT improvement committee, and what scares me is that the Admins really see this as kids getting better in math, and totally miss my fear that algebra for all will only water down algebra.

NCLB of course with their 100% proficient goal does not help. I hear many stories of special education parents truly believing their child can now make this goal. It's great that we are working with kids and moving them toward a goal, rather than "giving up" on them, but some kids just won't make it, and so many others are now being held back because of this law.

PC or not, I'm grateful that our school is a little behind in some ways, and hope that our very limited groupings last until my kids are through. I fear things will get worse before they get better....if they get better. I potentially see public schools as we know them becoming a thing of the past, in the not-so-distant future.

Tammy - I think you're onto something there. And Kriston - I'm honored to be quoted!

The GT experts I heard saying this were definitely saying this in the context of NCLB and how this has made it difficult for teachers and administrators to focus on anything but getting past the test. Not to mention continued and sustained budget cuts that have elilminated many extras (which at our school means no GT specialist, no chess club, after school programming, etc). Our school was able to get some extra money this year by marketing and getting enrollment up. What did they do with the extra money? They got a math specialist for the kids BEHIND in math. Saying that will trickle down to better math in the classroom. Well, I haven't seen it. And this is a "good", fairly affluent school.

I can't speak to the past. I had a horrible elementary school experience myself where I was never identified and generally felt like a freakish outcast of some sort, but I never knew why. It was also at a very small Catholic school. I never attended public school until high school level. Which compared to K-8 was WONDERFUL. I definitely can identify with Dottie's kids who like a bigger school setting. I went to a huge University for college and that was perfect for me.

But I do think, from a larger view I do feel "No child left behind" = "No child gets ahead" in general. Not that some teachers, admins aren't trying to reach children individually, but the current atmosphere does make it difficult.

Tammy - I totally agree. Our country is striving for mediocrity rather than trying to accelerate our top percentage of kids. It is a very PC world right now and the GT kids are definitely being left behind in many ways. The "no child left behind" has really hurt everybody I think. But people are very aware of that now and I am very hopeful that things are starting to swing in the other direction.

Krison - I look at Susie Q and, I believe it was cym, who are trying to start new programs and to Dottie who is blazing trails at her school and to you, who are homeschooling your child to see he gets what he needs and that makes me hopeful and excited about possible change. People are trying to do what they can to make a difference and that gives me hope for the future (remember Grinity's "for the grandchildren!") ((smiles))

Also, in the baggage area, many, many of us posted about how bored we were, how we read in class all the time, or had a hall pass to wander the halls, etc. so I don't see that things were so wonderful back then either. At least not for everyone. Maybe it is each person's individual experience with what they had and what their individual kids have now that shapes our perspectives.

My kids are in an accelerated magnet school (which is a public school) and while they aren't getting a perfect education, they are getting a good one. They have foreign language from K on up, art, dance, music, computer class, etc. as well as the regular curriculum. There are lots of clubs to join and after school activities to attend so I have to admit I am pleased with what they are getting. But they aren't PG or HG so it is easier for them I admit. However, I do think they are getting a better education than I did even with my being in a GT program - it just wasn't impressive. So again, I think it has to do with each person's individual experiences as to whether things seem better or worse today.

Very interesting topic!!!! :-)

Yeah, I think Tammy's got a good point too. I've been trying to find time to write out what it is that worries me about sending DS off to public 1st grade next year and I think the pressure to conform is part of it. I've got a kiddo who sees the world at a bit of an angle and I don't really want him realigned so that he matches everyone else, kwim? It's possible that wasn't so much of an issue a generation or two ago.

Of course what you're saying about individual experiences is utterly and indisputably true. And I don't mean to be all "Debbie Downer" here.

So between NCLB and the culture of mediocrity/un-PC-ing of clustering, is that what's wrong? Other things?

Sorry, our posts crossed paths, kcab. I think that's a good one that I hadn't considered--the standardization of kids. Interesting.

Anti-intellectualism leads to inadequate funding of public education in general and GT education in particular.

On the bright side though, there has never been a BETTER time to be a GT child PARENT!!!! Where would we be without the support of our comrades??? I can't imagine doing this without the internet!

"standardization of kids" - oof - I think most teachers would have a problem with that phrase and it scares me too. Much of the push to conform is self-inflicted anyway. I was thinking more about the tendency to consider only one answer correct, maybe that is reinforced by all the standards-based testing.

I agree, Dottie, gotta love the internet.

Sorry, kcab. I didn't mean to misrepresent you with my musings over what you wrote.

But you've got me thinking...When we pulled DS6 out of public school, there was much hue and cry that he would surely be unable to function in society if we did this strange and different thing with his education. I certainly felt pressure--some subtle, some not-at-all subtle!--to conform so that HE would learn to conform. One "friend"--a former teacher, no less!--even argued (loudly!) that there was nothing wrong with DS6's being bored for the next 2 years in public school, until the GT pull-out program began, since dealing with boredom is something that kids need to learn how to do. (And I don't think I need to explain that I know the difference between "I want to watch TV instead of go to school" boredom and "I want to actually learn something" boredom, right?)

I guess you got me thinking along more insidious systemic lines on this point...for better or for worse!

Oh, you got that right! I can't imagine trying to deal with all this without friends and resources like you all. On that point, we sure have it MUCH better than our parents had it! Ohmigosh, yes!