Hi, I am new here and have a question (or two) about testing. My dd is in Kindergarten and will not be 6 until this summer. At the beginning of the school year, she tested 5th grade in reading (with full comprehension) and 2nd grade in Math by achievement tests given at her school. Her GT teacher also adminstered the COgAT which she scored 150, 140 and 150 on the subtests. I was not given a composite score. I hesitate to share these scores but since I have seen this test mentioned before in this forum, I am hoping some of you can provide some perspective as to dd's abiliites.

I have read that the CogAt does not accurately determine a child's IQ yet I believe I read in another thread that one of you mentioned your child had been identified PG by the CogAt. In your experience, can the CogAt be a good estimator of IQ?

Also, dd's GT teacher is recommending a grade skip for next year but I hesitate without thorough testing. Would you recommend further testing or is the CogAt coupled with the school's achievement tests reason enough to warrant a skip?

Because she will not be 6 until this summer, we would need to wait to test her with the WISC. I have been told she shouldn't take the WPPSI (I think that's correct) because she may hit too many ceilings.

Any thoughts? Advice? Am I in denial by needing further testing before I admit the obvious?

Thanks in advance for reading and assisting a newbie like myself!

Jamie

Welcome! Glad to have you here!

Generally speaking, group tests like the CogAT aren't as accurate as the individual tests (like the WISC and Stanford-Binet). However, I believe the problem with the group tests is that they tend to show kids as scoring *lower* than they do on other tests, not higher. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. That says to me that you have one very bright child on your hands!

I certainly think that if you have a specific question to answer that wasn't adequately answered by the CogAT, like "Is this school going to be equipped to handle my child?" or "Should we grade skip?" or "Should we apply to the Davidson Young Sscholar Program?", then you should consider further testing. If you don't have specific questions and the school seems responsive to the information gleaned from the CogAT, then you may not need to bother with more testing.

(Also, you should probably note that the CogAT is not one of the tests that DYS accepts on their application, so if you want to apply, you will definitely need to administer an individual test.)

I think you have to wait until age 6 to administer either the WISC or the SB. You're right that you could give your DD the WPPSI now, but unless you need the scores for school, I'd recommend waiting and administering the WISC (since she's verbal) once she turns 6 because of the ceiling issues. That means the WPPSI might not tell you what you want to know and might not give your DD the scores she needs to get into DYS, even though it sounds like she's probably a good candidate.

My only concern about the skip based on what you've told us would be the 2nd grade math. If she's coming in average at 2nd grade level, math could fast become an area of frustration for her. However, I think if I were in your shoes, I'd take the skip and do a little math work with DD over the summer to be sure she's ready. Assuming you don't think her social skills are a problem, and assuming she's happy with the idea of the skip, then I wouldn't look that gift horse in the mouth. I'd also start planning playdates with the older kids ASAP.

And to answer your final question, yes, you're probably in GT denial, but you might as well join the club! I think the majority of us here are in some form of GT denial or another! The big things to decide are 1) what question are you really asking, and 2) do you really need another test in order to answer it?

I don't know that you need more testing to know that she's going to be bored silly in 1st grade, do you, really?

But then again, when faced with a similar situation, I had my DS tested because his achievement test scores were *so* much higher than I expected them to be. It's like I needed a tie-breaker test to show me that it wasn't a fluke! So it's very easy for me to say, "you don't need to test," when I needed it myself!

Welcome to the journey! It's quite a ride!

Great thoughts Kriston! I did want to correct that the SB-5 CAN be given at age 5 (I believe it starts at 2 or 3 even!) though, if you need individualized testing sooner.

Grade skips decisions are hard to make, especially the early ones. You'll find yourself second guessing just about everything at one point or another. But I've yet to regret a skip, and we've lived through quite a few.

If you want more information to stew over, I recommend the Iowa Acceleration Scale. You can get the paperback book from Amazon, and it talks you through every aspect of grade skipping to make sure you consider pretty much everything. It also gives you numerical guidance about the outcome.

Sooner or later you are probably going to want individualized IQ results, so keep that in mind for the future, even if right now is not the right time.

FWIW, I believe the 150's are hard ceilings and possibly reflect perfect scores in those areas.

Thanks, Dottie! I knew I'd get something wrong. But I was awake, so I figured I'd take a crack at it.

Dottie's post also reminds me of something I meant to add: my DS got 43 of 44 right on the CogAT in his strongest area, Nonverbal, which is a score of 140, or 99th percentile. His WISC score on Perceptual Reasoning, the comparable WISC subtest (I think), was a 151. He only got a 118 for Verbal Skills on the CogAT, so he was in the 87th percentile--not even GT!--for verbal, though he's currently having an easy time with "Old Yeller," a 5th or 6th grade book. That's a good 5 years above grade level, but the CogAT didn't even show him as GT in that area!

I tell you this to stress to you again that I think you have a *very* bright little girl on your hands!

From Kriston's post, we can also see that the last question in that one section, at least on this level (different tests for different ages) is worth 10 full standard points! That in itself should point out the limitations of such a test. FWIW, the WISC-IV isn't necessarily any better in that "beyond the range of the test" range!

Keep in mind though, that with the multiple choice guessing factor, scores can be off in both directions. Granted, you can't "guess" a perfect score, but you can guess the last two...kwim?

DS was 5 years, 9 mos. and in K when he took the CogAT, so I'd bet this was the same level test as Jamie's DD. Same age, same level, right? That might help with making sense of the numbers, maybe?

Yes, I'm pretty sure it's split by grade. I've always read though that for GT kids, it should be given "above level", but I don't think many schools do that in practice, especially if they start with the entire population as a potential talent pool.

My kids have never taken the Cogat, so I can only respond based on what I've read. I've heard tales of individual testing though going both ways (higher or lower than the Cogat results suggest).

Yeah that Welcome to the club! My DS is the same age like your daughter. He took WPPSI at 5 years 3 months and while he hit quite a few ceilings and we might have not gotten accurate results, it did prove helpful. We finally realized that he is not an average gifted kid but that he belongs to the top of gifted kids and as such needs more accommodations. We had known that he was gifted even before that but had thought that for sure his (small private) school must have seen bunch of kids like him. Wrong.

I would say go for the grade skip. I wouldn't worry about the math since the test was done at the beginning of the school year. If she tested as an average 2nd grader at the beginning of K, chances are that in Sept she would test at least as average 3rd grade or have the potential to get to such point pretty fast.

Good luck and welcome.

Thank you to everyone for your replies! Our dilemma is needing to test right away if pursuing a grade skip but wanting to wait until this summer when she is 6 for a more appropriate test.

Adding to the confusion is a factor I left out of my first post. She has a sister in 1st grade so if we skip her they will be in the same grade and, more than likely the same class.

So, we either test and advocate for skips for both of them or we do another year in their current situation and hope for the best with in class differentiation.

Her older sis tested 5 pts lower on each sub test of the CogAt (145, 135, and 145). She was recently tested as 6th grade reading and 3rd grade math.

As far as a skip goes, I am not terribly worried about the math, or any other academic area. My dd's both pick up concepts very easily with little repetition. I think they would test higher in math if we did more at home. We read each night at bed time but we don't do bed time math problems .

I worry most about their ages - they are already almost a year younger than many classmates and a skip would widen that to two. I don't see either of them as particularly mature and ready to "hold their own" with an older crowd.

We have a lot to consider. Thank you for the perspectives and advice you have given me so far.

Jamie

Ah, the plot thickens! Do you think they would both benefit from a grade skip? Are they both interested? FWIW, I have two children presently in 5th grade who are NOT twins. We have loads more class options though, and they are pretty separated. Only my son has ever skipped, though my oldest (not one of the 5th graders...I have three kids) was an early kindergarten admit.

Also, DS is now skipped two grades, which makes him the youngest by at least 16 months, and he does quite well with that. Granted, the second skip wasn't until he was a bit older (8+), but he did extremely well being 4-16 months younger those first few years.

It will get pricey no doubt, but I would recommend testing both girls if you go that route.

Here's something I didn't think to ask....if the GT teacher is suggesting the skip, might you possibly get the individual IQ testing done through the school (i.e., FREE!)?