Hi, I am new here and have a question (or two) about testing. My dd is in Kindergarten and will not be 6 until this summer. At the beginning of the school year, she tested 5th grade in reading (with full comprehension) and 2nd grade in Math by achievement tests given at her school. Her GT teacher also adminstered the COgAT which she scored 150, 140 and 150 on the subtests. I was not given a composite score. I hesitate to share these scores but since I have seen this test mentioned before in this forum, I am hoping some of you can provide some perspective as to dd's abiliites.

I have read that the CogAt does not accurately determine a child's IQ yet I believe I read in another thread that one of you mentioned your child had been identified PG by the CogAt. In your experience, can the CogAt be a good estimator of IQ?

Also, dd's GT teacher is recommending a grade skip for next year but I hesitate without thorough testing. Would you recommend further testing or is the CogAt coupled with the school's achievement tests reason enough to warrant a skip?

Because she will not be 6 until this summer, we would need to wait to test her with the WISC. I have been told she shouldn't take the WPPSI (I think that's correct) because she may hit too many ceilings.

Any thoughts? Advice? Am I in denial by needing further testing before I admit the obvious?

Thanks in advance for reading and assisting a newbie like myself!

Jamie

Welcome! Glad to have you here!

Generally speaking, group tests like the CogAT aren't as accurate as the individual tests (like the WISC and Stanford-Binet). However, I believe the problem with the group tests is that they tend to show kids as scoring *lower* than they do on other tests, not higher. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. That says to me that you have one very bright child on your hands!

I certainly think that if you have a specific question to answer that wasn't adequately answered by the CogAT, like "Is this school going to be equipped to handle my child?" or "Should we grade skip?" or "Should we apply to the Davidson Young Sscholar Program?", then you should consider further testing. If you don't have specific questions and the school seems responsive to the information gleaned from the CogAT, then you may not need to bother with more testing.

(Also, you should probably note that the CogAT is not one of the tests that DYS accepts on their application, so if you want to apply, you will definitely need to administer an individual test.)

I think you have to wait until age 6 to administer either the WISC or the SB. You're right that you could give your DD the WPPSI now, but unless you need the scores for school, I'd recommend waiting and administering the WISC (since she's verbal) once she turns 6 because of the ceiling issues. That means the WPPSI might not tell you what you want to know and might not give your DD the scores she needs to get into DYS, even though it sounds like she's probably a good candidate.

My only concern about the skip based on what you've told us would be the 2nd grade math. If she's coming in average at 2nd grade level, math could fast become an area of frustration for her. However, I think if I were in your shoes, I'd take the skip and do a little math work with DD over the summer to be sure she's ready. Assuming you don't think her social skills are a problem, and assuming she's happy with the idea of the skip, then I wouldn't look that gift horse in the mouth. I'd also start planning playdates with the older kids ASAP.

And to answer your final question, yes, you're probably in GT denial, but you might as well join the club! I think the majority of us here are in some form of GT denial or another! The big things to decide are 1) what question are you really asking, and 2) do you really need another test in order to answer it?

I don't know that you need more testing to know that she's going to be bored silly in 1st grade, do you, really?

But then again, when faced with a similar situation, I had my DS tested because his achievement test scores were *so* much higher than I expected them to be. It's like I needed a tie-breaker test to show me that it wasn't a fluke! So it's very easy for me to say, "you don't need to test," when I needed it myself!

Welcome to the journey! It's quite a ride!

Great thoughts Kriston! I did want to correct that the SB-5 CAN be given at age 5 (I believe it starts at 2 or 3 even!) though, if you need individualized testing sooner.

Grade skips decisions are hard to make, especially the early ones. You'll find yourself second guessing just about everything at one point or another. But I've yet to regret a skip, and we've lived through quite a few.

If you want more information to stew over, I recommend the Iowa Acceleration Scale. You can get the paperback book from Amazon, and it talks you through every aspect of grade skipping to make sure you consider pretty much everything. It also gives you numerical guidance about the outcome.

Sooner or later you are probably going to want individualized IQ results, so keep that in mind for the future, even if right now is not the right time.

FWIW, I believe the 150's are hard ceilings and possibly reflect perfect scores in those areas.

Thanks, Dottie! I knew I'd get something wrong. But I was awake, so I figured I'd take a crack at it.

Dottie's post also reminds me of something I meant to add: my DS got 43 of 44 right on the CogAT in his strongest area, Nonverbal, which is a score of 140, or 99th percentile. His WISC score on Perceptual Reasoning, the comparable WISC subtest (I think), was a 151. He only got a 118 for Verbal Skills on the CogAT, so he was in the 87th percentile--not even GT!--for verbal, though he's currently having an easy time with "Old Yeller," a 5th or 6th grade book. That's a good 5 years above grade level, but the CogAT didn't even show him as GT in that area!

I tell you this to stress to you again that I think you have a *very* bright little girl on your hands!

From Kriston's post, we can also see that the last question in that one section, at least on this level (different tests for different ages) is worth 10 full standard points! That in itself should point out the limitations of such a test. FWIW, the WISC-IV isn't necessarily any better in that "beyond the range of the test" range!

Keep in mind though, that with the multiple choice guessing factor, scores can be off in both directions. Granted, you can't "guess" a perfect score, but you can guess the last two...kwim?

DS was 5 years, 9 mos. and in K when he took the CogAT, so I'd bet this was the same level test as Jamie's DD. Same age, same level, right? That might help with making sense of the numbers, maybe?

Yes, I'm pretty sure it's split by grade. I've always read though that for GT kids, it should be given "above level", but I don't think many schools do that in practice, especially if they start with the entire population as a potential talent pool.

My kids have never taken the Cogat, so I can only respond based on what I've read. I've heard tales of individual testing though going both ways (higher or lower than the Cogat results suggest).

Yeah that Welcome to the club! My DS is the same age like your daughter. He took WPPSI at 5 years 3 months and while he hit quite a few ceilings and we might have not gotten accurate results, it did prove helpful. We finally realized that he is not an average gifted kid but that he belongs to the top of gifted kids and as such needs more accommodations. We had known that he was gifted even before that but had thought that for sure his (small private) school must have seen bunch of kids like him. Wrong.

I would say go for the grade skip. I wouldn't worry about the math since the test was done at the beginning of the school year. If she tested as an average 2nd grader at the beginning of K, chances are that in Sept she would test at least as average 3rd grade or have the potential to get to such point pretty fast.

Good luck and welcome.

Thank you to everyone for your replies! Our dilemma is needing to test right away if pursuing a grade skip but wanting to wait until this summer when she is 6 for a more appropriate test.

Adding to the confusion is a factor I left out of my first post. She has a sister in 1st grade so if we skip her they will be in the same grade and, more than likely the same class.

So, we either test and advocate for skips for both of them or we do another year in their current situation and hope for the best with in class differentiation.

Her older sis tested 5 pts lower on each sub test of the CogAt (145, 135, and 145). She was recently tested as 6th grade reading and 3rd grade math.

As far as a skip goes, I am not terribly worried about the math, or any other academic area. My dd's both pick up concepts very easily with little repetition. I think they would test higher in math if we did more at home. We read each night at bed time but we don't do bed time math problems .

I worry most about their ages - they are already almost a year younger than many classmates and a skip would widen that to two. I don't see either of them as particularly mature and ready to "hold their own" with an older crowd.

We have a lot to consider. Thank you for the perspectives and advice you have given me so far.

Jamie

Ah, the plot thickens! Do you think they would both benefit from a grade skip? Are they both interested? FWIW, I have two children presently in 5th grade who are NOT twins. We have loads more class options though, and they are pretty separated. Only my son has ever skipped, though my oldest (not one of the 5th graders...I have three kids) was an early kindergarten admit.

Also, DS is now skipped two grades, which makes him the youngest by at least 16 months, and he does quite well with that. Granted, the second skip wasn't until he was a bit older (8+), but he did extremely well being 4-16 months younger those first few years.

It will get pricey no doubt, but I would recommend testing both girls if you go that route.

Here's something I didn't think to ask....if the GT teacher is suggesting the skip, might you possibly get the individual IQ testing done through the school (i.e., FREE!)?

Hi Dottie - yes, the plot thickens. I didn't want to throw too much at everyone at once!;)

How do your kids handle being in the same grade? We worry that the younger one will always be in the older one's shadow.

Our school has a cooperating GT trained teacher at each grade level so the Id'd Gt kids are grouped in the same class and that teacher works closely with the GT coordinator. So, if they were in the same grade , they would really need to be in the same class,too.

I'm not sure how either of them would feel about a skip, we haven't mentioned it to them because I don't want them to worry needlessly.

If we did skip, though, I would want to do it gradually by having them start to visit the next grade this year and get comfortable with the kids and the different expectations so they wouldn't jump into it *cold* at the beginning of next year.

This is why I am asking about testing, etc.

It may all be a waste of time b/c the GT teacher said our district really frowns on grade skips and that they are "nearly impossible" to achieve.

However, if I'm convinced they need it, I'm willing to fight for it. I guess I just need a little more convincing first. (and dh needs A LOT more convincing!)

Thanks!
Jamie

I think we had a lot of things stacked in our favor, with our "twin" situation. One plus that you don't have is the different genders. I think this helps keep them separate naturally, as they aren't "competing" for friends, etc. The younger one is still "ahead" of the older one, so if anything, the shadow falls the other way, . They are REALLY close though, and it seems to be working quite well at the moment, although it was a little awkward at first (lots of questions for DD about whether her brother was a twin, etc).

We have no contained GT class, and fortunately the pullout generally has two "halves". My two are currently in different halves.

Testing is a good first step, as you can do that without really sharing the reasons behind it with the girls. However, before even seriously considering it, I do recommend you feel them out about the possibility.

FWIW, our school frowns very much on grade skipping too, and it's been an interesting marathon convincing them to try it. I've had to be certain myself though about its need, or at least poker face that certainty (saving my second guessing for places like this!) Oddly enough, the school never seemed concerned about the sibling issue (although the IOWA scale I suggested above has that as a big no-no!)

It sounds like you'll need/want the testing at least for your own reassurance. Have you looked into possible ways to get that extra data? There are no guarantees for the "down the road" outcome of course, but having good analytical data going into the decision can really help.

I send you a PM Jamie. I am very interested in these questions . . . . .
J

Jamie,
I guess I am wondering if there is something specific that you wish to accomplish with the skip. Is first grade notoriously boring for kids at the school? are there no teachers who are good matches for GT kids? Will the school be unwilling to do adequate subject accelerations through elementary? Are your daughters unhappy, bored, getting lazy intellectually?

I have a son who is perfectly capable of skipping and has even casually been offered one by the principal. But he loves his class and is getting most of his needs met with subject accelerations, so he has no real need or desire to skip. Each year he has been in school has been useful to him in many ways--with each teacher having something unique to offer him. We would have bee sad to miss any of his elementary years. I know we have been lucky in a variety of ways and that under other circumstances we probably would have seriously considered a skip. Each year I worry that this will be the year that there will be problems, but he's in middle school now and everything is going great.

I just think a lot depends on the child's personality, their attachment to their classmates (especially for girls social relationships can be important), and the schools ability and interest in meeting the child's needs creatively. These factors are just as important as the test scores.

That's truly a dilemma you have on your hands with the sister in the next grade up. I know it can work (it has for Dottie) but for my children I know it would not work. I have same gender like you, except they are boys. My middle child has been skipped twice and is now in 7th. His brother, who is 3 years older, is in 8th. The younger one really could benefit from at least one more year acceleration but both brothers are adamant that they do not want to be in the same class. (small school, only one class per grade) Granted they are older than yours are right now so that might make a difference. But even if I had moved the younger into the same class as his brother years ago, there would be problems now relating to puberty and maturity. Plus you have the added dimension of your older one being almost, if not as gifted, as the younger. Would she maybe resent not being allowed the chance to move ahead like her sister? I think in your case, they would both have to skip.

As to whether they SHOULD skip or not is a different question. Some do well with out accelerating. Some, like mine, were imploding before we started the gradeskip route. I'm not a big fan of testing for testing's sake, but I think in your case, you really do need to know what you're looking at. An individually administered IQ/acheivement test, with some above level testing thrown in, would probably giove you a good base of knowledge from which to start.

Jamie.
I feel for you becuse I was agonizing over a similar question only a few months ago. Here is what I have lerned, what became clear:
- they have to be involved, even young kids need to express their opionion, so talk to them and their input will be invaluable - it might actually change your perspective!
- they younger they are when grade skipped, the better - they do not overanalize things so much when younger.
- look at your daughters as individuals, the fact that one is grade skipped, doesn't mean the other automatically has too - this was my biggest eye opener.

Here is my saga from last year, if you ever wanted to read it:
http://giftedissues.gt-cybersource.org/BB/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/3229#Post3229

Thank you for all of the replies. It is comforting knowing there are others out there who have or are currently dealing with similar issues.

Everyone brings up very valid points, many of which are concerns of mine and some which are new.

For some, a grade skip is the best way to go, for others it is not. I need to figure out what is best for my dd - both of them.

acs - I am not sure I know what I want to accomplish through grade skip as much as what I want to avoid. I want to avoid my dd having to endure the mind numbing drudgery of repetitve instruction on topics she mastered over three years ago. I want to avoid her feeling like a complete misfit because no one else is capable of performing even close to her level. I want to avoid her learning how to hide her abilities and thus, her true self in order to *fit in* with *everyone else*.

I agree that each year will bring something positive, but my problem is - will one small positive overshadow the many negatives? Her K year has been a great one solely b/c of an awesome teacher. Even her K teacher worries about moving her on to 1st grade.

Having said that, I am still very uncomfortable with the idea of skipping either child, but particularly of skipping just one. So much so, in fact, that if a skip appears to be our only option , we will probably homeschool instead.

We are pursuing testing and will meet with the GT and K teacher in the next few weeks to discuss options. Right now, I am hoping to come up with some creative solutions such as subject acceleration and hand-picking teachers comfortable with diferentiation for next year but, we'll see.

Thanks again for all of your input and advice and your willingness to share your experiences! I truly appriciate it!

gratified3 - Thank you so much for your candid response! I look forward to discussing things with you further as soon as I figure out how to properly navigate around this board!

Oh, it's you! Oh, I'm so glad you came over. This board will be a tremendous resource to you; I've found it absolutely invaluable, and you and I are coming from similar places with our kids, I think!

How's the Floridian sun treating you, Mia?

We've got 3-6 inches of snow predicted for tomorrow. Ugh.

Ugh, we're back. Ugh. Sunburn will fade *very* quickly, I assure you! :P

Hi Mia! Back already? I hope ds had a great time (and you,too - of course).

Jamie "B"

Much of this has to do more with personality (of your children, the school, your family) than just academic ability. DS was reading at about 4th grade level when he started K. But he would sit in circle time hand raised enthusiastically ready to identify the "letter of the day!" He was just so happy to be at school and happy to participate. That spark has really never faded.

By 3rd, he had negotiated for himself a year subject acceleration in math, which quickly became 2 years and now 3 years. I don't know how he does it, but he manages to get what he needs, enjoys being with his class (even the "thugs"), and is never bored. None of the things you worry about have ever happened.

The psych who tested him said he had never seen an HG+ kid this happy in public school, so perhaps our story is rare, but I don't think it's unique. I think a lot of our luck comes from the fact that DS is an extreme extrovert, socially gifted, and confident. He arrived that way--I don't take much credit.

My point is not to brag about my son (even though I like to get to do that), but to use him to demonstrate the huge role personality played in our decision to not skip him.

Your son sounds lovely, brag away!!!!!!

Incog

acs - Your experience is definitely encouraging! Your ds sounds like a remarkable child.

He reminds me of my older dd when she was in K. However, things began to sour for her in 1st.

I agree that much has to do with personality and also with getting the right teacher. The wrong teacher can squelch even the most enthusiastic of kids which is what we saw happening to our oldest until we intervened.

There seem to be no easy answers. It is good to know that there are those who have had positive outcomes on both sides of the situation.

Jamie

Yes, good teachers have played a huge role in our success. Except for first grade, when the teacher was "just" good (and overwhelmed with NCLB requirements), we have had wonderful teachers all the way through and the principal has always been supportive of whatever the teachers felt they needed to do to keep DS engaged (including excempting him from "required" reading curriculum!). Sometimes I go through a chicken and egg argument with myself: is DS so happy because he has had supportive teachers? or are DS's teachers so supportive because he is so easy to like?. By this time, it's clearly both things working together. But which came first?

I have brothers who were more introverted and sullen. They did not "click" with their teachers (even some of the good ones that I got along with well), probably because of their temperment. School was harder for them. Although you can teach them some useful social skills, I don't think you can fundamentally change their temperment.

I think first grade is a particularly tough year for these HG+ kids. I hear it often from the personal experience of people on this and similar forums, saw it with my own DS, and have read that it is so in various books and websites. First grade is a sea-change, I think, and it tends to show the problems with trying to fit our kids into an educational system that isn't made for them.

The teachers make all the difference! If I had DS6's first grade year to do over again, I'd have moved heaven and earth to get him into a classroom with a good teacher for first grade. As it was, I didn't know the one we got wasn't good. I didn't ask the right questions of other parents and of administrators. (Heck, I didn't even ask what his test scores were! Duh!) I went with the flow. If I knew then what I know now...

I'd make waves! Big, gigantic crashing waves!!!

We always hand-picked every teacher DS has had. Luckily, there was always at least one good option. Not every one is going to be that lucky!

How was it that you were able to handpick the teachers, acs? Were the school adminstrators supportive or resistant? What obstacles did you have to overcome the first time you wanted to pick your child's teacher?

I'd love to know your secrets in case I need to pick a teacher in the future!

Thanks!

Our district accepts teacher requests. There is a form in the office to fill out and it just needs to be turned in by a certain date. So it is no big deal. Most parents don't request (maybe 5 out of the 100 kids request) so those of us who do request get who we want. I am sure that in many more affluent districts most parents would request and it might be very hard to meet everyone's desires, but that is not our demographic.

I would often observe teachers and then ask DS's current teacher who she recommends as a good fit for DS.

I'm not sure if this helps. I guess we've been lucky to have an accomodating district.

Hmm, yes. In our district, there's no form. It's a special request to the principal.

Bummer. I was hoping you had some secret mojo I could borrow!

In our school the students' current teachers place the kids into the next year's classes. The teachers have an hour long meeting where it is decided. So I think that in our case, the other route is to make sure that your child's current teacher knows what you want. They can then make sure it happens.

I'm amazed at how transparent the process is for you. I'm guessing there's some sort of meeting--or they just draw kids names out of a hat!--but I went to the PTA meetings, and I still have no real sense of what the process entails.

Grumble, grumble...

Ah, I volunteered in DS's classroom and typed up the lists of which kid was going where the day after the teacher meeting. I got to see exactly where each kid was going and why. That took the mystery out of the process.

It truly helps to be in a poor district where parent volunteers are few and far between. I was there one morning a week for 6 years and they got pretty used to me and treated me like one of the teachers.

When I volunteered in DS6's class, I put dimes in film containers and made photocopies of workbook pages in the office. Nothing at all useful to me, though hopefully it did actually help the class run better.

Grumble, grumble some more...

Hi Jamie --

Ok, here're my thoughts on your situation.

First, don't rule out school just because of a grade skip! I was grade skipped one year and I turned out fine. In fact, I always kind of liked the fact I was grade skipped. Both my older sister and I were grade-skipped one year (we both went from first to third) with no major issues.

Of course, homeschooling might be *exactly* what your dds would thrive on, if you have the time/ability/inclination to do it. But if you don't, don't fret -- a grade skip or two really isn't the end of the world. :-)

Now, on the two dds in the same grade ... I'd hesitate to do it. If I were you, I'd be more worried of the older one being in the younger one's shadow -- she may wonder (now or later) why she wasn't skipped too, given that she's clearly above grade level and very, very bright. On the other hand, they might love it and enjoy being in one another's company.

I'd suggest dropping in a few hints here and there and trying to ferret out their opinions without actually proposing the idea. Does that make sense? Just to see where they sit. One such hint to ds and he was chomping at the bit to be a third-grader -- how optimistic! I was surprised at not bothered he was by the thought.

As for the school that does not skip ... well, the road of advocacy is long and twisted. I've detailed more on this board about my accommodation woes than on the other board, but suffice it to say that I've been working with the school since November and they're *finally* starting to "get" it. They said they couldn't work individual with ds at his level, and I responded that this is why we're looking at a full grade skip -- less work for the school. It's a good point that may not go unnoticed.

Stick around! So glad you decided to come check this board out.

ACS - You've gotten to hand pick every teacher? That in itself is HUGE! Our school has a very strict no requesting a teacher policy. And our school has really heavy parent involvement. I'm sure at least half the parents would request if they allowed that. If we could actually pick our teachers every year, life may be much different for us!

I've noticed that in 2nd grade for instance, right now there is a really stellar teacher and a really terrible teacher. If your child is at all high energy or has any sort of problem, they get the great teacher. All the "go with the flow" kids get the terrible teacher. DS is really not a behavoiral problem at all (but it's tempting to ask him to be one). And they don't cluster the GT kids.

I've gotten to hand pick every teacher too. The school used to allow for requests (and I always got who I requested) and now I work 1 day a week for each of my kid's teachers and they are the ones who decide where my kids go next year. So I have informed them of who I want for each child and I fully expect they will comply with my wishes! :-) Like acs said, it is one of the perks of being around all the time (it's usually more like 3 to 4 days a week I'm up there doing something!)

kim are you sure you can't put a bug in the current teacher's ear about who you'd like for next year? If you can give reasons why you think your child would be a better fit with one teacher rather than the other maybe they'd be receptive? Wouldn't hurt to try anyway! :-)

Now...if only you could pick the teacher AND the classmates, LOL!

I heard that!

Interesting! I actually volunteer in DS's classroom a couple hours a week too. It actually might be a worthwhile experiment, even if we decide to pull out.

Unfortunately, it won't cure there lack of block scheduling and a number of other issues! Not to mention, the classmates!